Is anyone doing paper negs? I have some old paper and thought I would use it for that. Any info as to times and exposure would be helpful, the paper is Azo F-3 single wt. Thanks, Pat 
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Wow... I think you may be burnt at the stake for that suggestion
Wow...yeah, I'd agree with gnashings. Seriously...DON'T use that paper for paper negatives. For the love of all that is holy, PLEASE! I don't even PRINT yet and I know how valuable that stuff is.
I agree---use fastest RC paper you can find. In terms of speed, Kodabrome III F1 or F2 would be the best, but there's annoying Kodak logo on back. Ilfospeed is good, MG4, etc. are also decent.
If you are in Japan, you can buy Fujibro panchromatic paper as well. (but then you could deal with sheet films...)
If you are in Japan, you can buy Fujibro panchromatic paper as well. (but then you could deal with sheet films...)
......... absolutely on the Azo responses, hey send it to me postage paid if you don't want it!! As to the paper neg question, I've always used RC & usually bought cheaply at a market or something... it works well plus with RC once it's been developed the backing can be peeled off carefully to make it easier and faster to print. From memory I think I used it at 4 or 8 ASA in my 5x4 cut sheets, also cut with the notches to denote emulsion side. With the right subject matter they can be a great success. Good luck! -David.
Being a single weight paper, Azo is ideal for paper negatives. You'll just have to experiment for the proper exposure times. You realize, of course, that you will need to make a positive first, and then another exposure through that piece of Azo to make it a negative again. Depending on the target printing process for your negative, you may have to experiment a little with developer dilution and time to get the negative contrast you are looking for.
Azo also makes an excellent inkjet paper if you turn it around and print on the back side. Its single weight makes it very easy for the printer wheels to grab, and makes quite a bold statement when you print your letterhead and business correspondence on Azo. As you would expect, it prints with a depth and luminescence unlike any other inkjet paper. It is almost like my documents have a glow from within the paper.
If you don't like carrying around a thick stack of business cards in your wallet, the Azo will also make a nice sturdy thin stock to print them on and take up a lot less space than ordinary card stock. The quality of my business cards is miles ahead of any other commercially available paper since I began doing this. Try it!
Azo also makes an excellent inkjet paper if you turn it around and print on the back side. Its single weight makes it very easy for the printer wheels to grab, and makes quite a bold statement when you print your letterhead and business correspondence on Azo. As you would expect, it prints with a depth and luminescence unlike any other inkjet paper. It is almost like my documents have a glow from within the paper.
If you don't like carrying around a thick stack of business cards in your wallet, the Azo will also make a nice sturdy thin stock to print them on and take up a lot less space than ordinary card stock. The quality of my business cards is miles ahead of any other commercially available paper since I began doing this. Try it!
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I am actually doing a lot of paper neg work with my 4x5 right now. I rate the Ilford RC MG IV at about ASA 0.8 or 1. I contact print for 30 seconds without peeling the back off, about 10 with. I am not sure of the exact amount of light in footcandles, but it is about an "8" on my Ilford EM10 Enlarging Meter.
Peeling the back can introduce some interesting effects, as the paper seldom tears perfectly evenly and leaves a kind of fibrous cloudiness across the image overall.
Peeling the back can introduce some interesting effects, as the paper seldom tears perfectly evenly and leaves a kind of fibrous cloudiness across the image overall.
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hi pat --
azo from what i remember from my tests a bunch of years ago is about 7 stops slower than regular enlarging paper. regular paper i expose at about asa 6 ... i love making paper negatives (in camera as well as contact/internegatives) and photograms with azo. you might fing gr3 to be kind of contrasty when you process the paper ... you might try using exhausted ansco 130 to cut fresh stock dilute 1:5 ... and a water bath to tame it a little.
have fun!
-john
ps. don't forget to trim the paper before putting it in your film holder!
4x5 plates are actually 4x5", film is just shy of that measurement by something like 1/16"
azo from what i remember from my tests a bunch of years ago is about 7 stops slower than regular enlarging paper. regular paper i expose at about asa 6 ... i love making paper negatives (in camera as well as contact/internegatives) and photograms with azo. you might fing gr3 to be kind of contrasty when you process the paper ... you might try using exhausted ansco 130 to cut fresh stock dilute 1:5 ... and a water bath to tame it a little.
have fun!
-john
ps. don't forget to trim the paper before putting it in your film holder!
4x5 plates are actually 4x5", film is just shy of that measurement by something like 1/16"
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Sure, paper negatives aren't that hard to do. It will take a bit of experimentation to get EI rating right. Starting with an EI of about 8 or 12 should get you in the ballpark. One thing to remember though is that with unfiltered daylight, the contrast of your paper negative with VC papers might be a bit too much owing to the large portion of blue light present in daylight. You might want to try using a yellow filter in front of your lens as well to tame that a bit. Something else to note is that many VC papers are less sensitive in the yellow/green portion of the spectrum, so you'll probably need to add a stop or two to your normal, unfiltered exposure.
Thank You
I will start with ASA 6 and go from there and see what happens. Pat
I will start with ASA 6 and go from there and see what happens. Pat
Azo is way to slow for camera exposures. It is mostly UV sensitive. Try using MGIV or graded Ilford papers metered at ISO 25.
PE
PE
Rating MG4 at 25 will result in vastly inadequate exposure. I suggest rating it at 1 to 3 in daylight.
If you haven't made paper negatives before, and you're just now getting started, I think you're going to have a lot of fun. I can't speak for the Azo paper, but I do use Ilford MGIV RC deluxe (cheap stuff) and it works great. Basic exposure time on my homebuilt 8x10 run about 8 seconds @ f/22 for outside day shots on the average, and about 3 - 4 minutes @ f/22 inside on a very well lit object. I haven't calulated any accurate ISO/ASA numbers yet. Too lazy. I've even shot paper in my Polaroid Model 80 with equally good results. Just scan them and reverse them on the pc to see instant results after drying.
DannL said:
Assuming Sunny f/16 rule, your exposure is EI 0.25. This is 1/100 of what Ron (PE) said, but it's actually pretty close to what one expects the toe exposure speed would be, based on calculation using ISO speed measurement method.
Ryuji said:
Ooops, I feel like the spreader of half truths and lies. I don't know how this fits in, but I must correct myself for the record. I was reading my f/stops off the lens. That is wrong.
Here's why . . .
I am only using 1/2 of a rapid rectilinear which has extended the focal length of this lens to 12" or 304 mm focused at infinity.
Thus the original lens configuration would have been 170mm and f/22, meaning the aperture is 7.72mm @ the f/22 setting.
Using that with the new focal length of 304mm means 304mm/7.72mm = an f/stop of f/39
So my outside daytime shots are really 8 seconds at f/39. or inside 3-4 minutes at f/39??
Please correct me if I'm wrong. Sorry.
Ok, let's round it up to make f/44. That would be 1/4 the exposure and so you're using EI of about 1, based on Sunny f/16 rule. It's still well within the range used by many people.
Please see my post of Ilford MGIV exposed at ISO 25 in the thread on ortho emulsions. It does work but being a multigrade paper and high contrast at that, the imaging is not perfect, but the 'average' usable camera speed is about 25.
Seeing the thumbnails will help.
PE
Seeing the thumbnails will help.
PE
I have been working with paper negatives for the last 10 years, mostly in LF pinhole cameras. I am able to get "full" tonal range (for an orthochromatic emulsion) negatives and prints, in brightly lit, contrasty scenes, using a regimen of several techniques.
First, I use graded paper for negatives. I prefer RC grade 2; my current brand is Arista RC-2. I find that multicontrast paper is more difficult to control the resulting contrast.
Second, I preflash my paper negatives. This is mainly done for pinhole cameras, as a way to reduce or eliminate the effects of reciprocity failure, which tends to loose shadow detail and blow out contrast. I have a 7.5 watt, 120vac lamp, suspended ~30 inches above the work surface, that is projected through a homemade lamp housing through a 1/8" aperture. Typical preflash times are 5 seconds.
Third, I use dilute, used paper developer. My current batch is about a year old mix of Agfa Neutol WA. I "replenish" once in a while with a shot of fresh chems, but I don't throw out the old stuff.
When developing, I develop by inspection. Typical times are 3-5 minutes. I pull the negatives when adequate shadow detail has built up without blowing out the highlight details.
A properly exposed and developed paper negative should not have the same contrast as a finished print. it's not merely the tonal opposite of a print; it should be lower in contrast than the equivalent finished print. Image highlight should not be anywhere near max density; image shadows should retain some degree of detail. Many good paper negatives have a faded, warm appearance, in comparison to what a good print would be. But if you've captured the full range of the scene's tones on that paper negative's shallow contrast, it will contact print just fine.
I've also done some enlargements of Arista RC-2 4x5 on a Besseler 4x5 enlarger, and the resulting 11x14 prints look quite nice, very film-like.
First, I use graded paper for negatives. I prefer RC grade 2; my current brand is Arista RC-2. I find that multicontrast paper is more difficult to control the resulting contrast.
Second, I preflash my paper negatives. This is mainly done for pinhole cameras, as a way to reduce or eliminate the effects of reciprocity failure, which tends to loose shadow detail and blow out contrast. I have a 7.5 watt, 120vac lamp, suspended ~30 inches above the work surface, that is projected through a homemade lamp housing through a 1/8" aperture. Typical preflash times are 5 seconds.
Third, I use dilute, used paper developer. My current batch is about a year old mix of Agfa Neutol WA. I "replenish" once in a while with a shot of fresh chems, but I don't throw out the old stuff.
When developing, I develop by inspection. Typical times are 3-5 minutes. I pull the negatives when adequate shadow detail has built up without blowing out the highlight details.
A properly exposed and developed paper negative should not have the same contrast as a finished print. it's not merely the tonal opposite of a print; it should be lower in contrast than the equivalent finished print. Image highlight should not be anywhere near max density; image shadows should retain some degree of detail. Many good paper negatives have a faded, warm appearance, in comparison to what a good print would be. But if you've captured the full range of the scene's tones on that paper negative's shallow contrast, it will contact print just fine.
I've also done some enlargements of Arista RC-2 4x5 on a Besseler 4x5 enlarger, and the resulting 11x14 prints look quite nice, very film-like.
This may or may not be inspiration for Pat. These are a couple of my recent paper negative shots on 8x10. I'm a newbie at LF and Paper Negs, so please be easy on me.
8 seconds @ f/80 on Ilford MGIV RC Deluxe, Ilford PQ Universal 1:9 for 120 sec
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4 minutes @ f/39 on Ilford MGIV RC Deluxe, Dektol 1:2 for 60 sec
Dead Link Removed
Please note the chair is really bright canary yellow. Only the white vinyl seat reflects the brightness of the yellow painted beam. The color yellow is muted in the paper negative. Reds are usually jet black.
8 seconds @ f/80 on Ilford MGIV RC Deluxe, Ilford PQ Universal 1:9 for 120 sec
Dead Link Removed
4 minutes @ f/39 on Ilford MGIV RC Deluxe, Dektol 1:2 for 60 sec
Dead Link Removed
Please note the chair is really bright canary yellow. Only the white vinyl seat reflects the brightness of the yellow painted beam. The color yellow is muted in the paper negative. Reds are usually jet black.
Well, i know this is heresy for some, but I use Ansco 130 ink. Good enough for Ansel, good enough for me.
c6h6o3 said:
DannL said:
Danni, can you reduce that to ISO or EI?
PE
Photo Engineer said:
ISO or EI? No idea????
The first outside photo was measured ~325 on Weston Master II Universal Exposure Meter at ~ 40-50
The second was a shot in the dark.
One sheet after another till I found a good exposure.Photo Engineer said:
Dan said he didn't calculte. So see my calculation. That's about EI of 1, but the shadow detail is alredy a little too tight.
Dann - your posts are just in time! I plan to try the paper neg in an old Sanderson full plate camera using book-type holders. Yours look terrific - but how did you print/reverse them?
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