Paper in Jobo ATL

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adamlugi

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Hi,
I bought Ilford FB paper for machine processing. The difference is that it is gradation 4 and must be processed in total darkness.
I will be doing it in a Jobo ATL 2 plus Processor. I would like to ask for your suggestions on speed of rotation, and times I should use.

Regards
Adam
 

koraks

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Paper is develop to completion, so development time depends on developer, dilution and temperature.
Temperature for B&W is not critical; just pick something and stick with it.
Rotation speed won't matter much, but I'd lean towards the fast side.

Expose a couple of strips to a step tablet and then process in the developer of your choice for a few different times. Observe the difference; the shorter times may show lower densities, but at some point the strips should all come out virtually identical once the development time crosses a certain threshold. Then pick a time a bit beyond that threshold. E.g. if all your strips developed for 90s, 120s, 150s and 180s look the same, process your paper at 120s and you should be OK.

for machine processing. The difference is that it is gradation 4

So it's a 'digital' paper - optimized for digital exposure. It should print OK optically as well. The fact that it has (some) red sensitivity is interesting in case you want to use it for enlarging color negatives. The grade 4 will come in handy in that application, too.

Any reason in particular you want to process it in a machine? It may just be a matter of preference. I think I'd personally just chuck it into a tray and call it good.
 
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adamlugi

adamlugi

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I want to try it in the machine , because I'm afraid of the problems of handling the trays in total darkness. This is a 50x60 0and 60x70 format.
By default, I have the film development machine set to a speed of 75, but with large formats and a correx 3000 recommented 50 .
I set the temperature to 20 degrees celcius and 2 or 3 minutes of developer.

I read somewhere that it is also possible to enlarge color negatives and that filters should also work in such a case, as in traditional black and white photography, but I am not sure :smile:
 

koraks

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Yes, makes sense to process in drums with these formats.

Color filters should indeed work if it's panchromatic paper. You can use the CMY filters on a color enlarger.
 

DREW WILEY

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Trying to make black and white prints directly from color negatives isn't as simple as it sounds. A few pan sensitive papers have been made in limited sizes, but are not always available. But here's one of the problems : color negatives tend to be very low contrast compared to black and white negs. They have standardized processing and end up with an orange mask, both of which limit their contrast. So you might end up with a blaah result.

I've had to resort to a double negative technique to get serious punch. First, make a black and white pan film inter-positive from your color neg original, modifying it as desired using colored contrast filters (a bit of an involved topic, because you have to factor in both that orange mask, as well as the fact you are working in double negative mode - for example, if you wish to darken a blue sky, you add blue filtration to the enlarger rather than yellow or red). The nice thing, is that once you have processed your interpositive, you can actually see how the tonality of the final print will come out, because it is positive. Develop it to medium contrast.

Second, generate the actual printing negative from the inter-positive. This should be developed to a somewhat higher contrast. Ideally print it on VC paper, which gives you even more contrast control.

Per drum development. Jobo rigs run at a higher RPM than ideal. This means that development will be accelerated, and if so, the fill and drain times will become a larger factor in the shorter timing cycle, given the fact that Jobo drums fill and drain comparatively slowly due to their small opening. Due to that, I'd opt for a low RPM setting, along with manual fill and drain.

Another issue : Certain current papers like Ilford Classic and Cooltone are rather sensitive, and might show uneven highlights if the transition between solutions is not fast enough. The pump system of the ATL isn't friendly in that regard. So you will need to experiment.

But what Ilford paper is still available in any kind of graded fashion? Are you buying old paper? If it's a "digital" laser exposure paper as Koraks identifies it, will conventional optical enlargement even give you a truly neutral gray scale? I guess you'll have to find out for yourself.

It would seem so much easier just to work with trays and conventional VC papers.
 
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adamlugi

adamlugi

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The paper is indeed designed for Lambda-type machines, and according to the manufacturer, the main difference is that it has to be processed in complete darkness. I’ve done my first tests, and they look quite good. I’m having an issue with large formats because 50x40 cm fits perfectly into the extended 2500 tank, but I also have 70x60 cm paper, and I’m wondering if the paper can overlap in the tank. I set the time to 2.5 minutes, 50 RPM, and it’s working quite well :smile: In Poland, Ilford changed its distributor, and the previous one was clearing out all the Ilford stock and offered me two rolls for 140 euros, so I bought them :smile: I did B&W only. I will test color negative soon, but BW is more important for me:smile:
 

Carnie Bob

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I used this paper for many years in my Lambda... it is galerie grade 4 with an extended red sensitivity so it has to be. processed in total darkness.

The OP could calibrate digital negs to this paper if he/she wishes and do contact prints or use negatives of very low contrast due to the grade 4 nature.
 
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adamlugi

adamlugi

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What do you think, can I develop FB paper in ThermaPhot 505?
 

DREW WILEY

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I'd imagine they'd shred or crumple. But frankly, I sold my 505 without ever testing it in that respect because drums are a lot simpler for me personally. But doing anything large FB in a drum is itself questionable. Wet FB paper gets soft and can collapse under rotation.
 
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adamlugi

adamlugi

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Not a good idea. At the very least you'll get fouling of the machine due to fibers shedding from the paper. That may be the least of your worries if the whole thing jams, which is really what I'd expect.

I have similar feelings with FB paper will be too "soft" for rolls. The question is how Chromira or lambda is built that can develop such paper?
 

koraks

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I'm not familiar with Chromira and Lambda units that are capable of processing FB paper. Maybe they exist, maybe they don't - I really don't know. All I do know is that RT processors intended for processing color paper are not engineered to process FB paper.
 
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adamlugi

adamlugi

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I'm not familiar with Chromira and Lambda units that are capable of processing FB paper. Maybe they exist, maybe they don't - I really don't know. All I do know is that RT processors intended for processing color paper are not engineered to process FB paper.

Above, Carnie wrote that he used this paper in Lambda.
 

koraks

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Above, Carnie wrote that he used this paper in Lambda.

So ask Bob...I don't know if he refers to a machine that exposes as well as processes, or only exposes and that he did processing manually or in some other machine. Again, I'm not familiar with the machine and my comment was specifically about RT processors.
 

Carnie Bob

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I personally ran all my paper for fibre through the Lambda 8-10 ft 30inch wide and hand scrolled through massive troughs with about 50 litres of chem in each. I could run about 50- 80 ft a day comfortably in a day. I have masssive sinks and wash trays so we would cut down the processed paper and vertical wash after toning. I never used a machine as it IMHO dinged the emulsion too much... The big Lambda labs do use large roller transport processors.
Regarding processing in jobo well the simplest test is to do a couple rather than theorize just do it if it work it works. I know a dude who did all his cibas that way, not sure about fibre in Jobo.

Edit.. if you. go on wiki you will see that Ilford and Metro Imaging claim they were the first to do lambda fibres in 2006 , I was processing Agfa Classic through lambda in 2003 and have the prints hanging in my space to prove it... one day I will correct this mistake in Wiki.
 
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adamlugi

adamlugi

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Bob, thanks. I understood. Now I do in ATL 40x50 and it is ok. I try find solution for 70x60 cm because Jobo 2500 is to small:smile:
 
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adamlugi

adamlugi

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So ask Bob...I don't know if he refers to a machine that exposes as well as processes, or only exposes and that he did processing manually or in some other machine. Again, I'm not familiar with the machine and my comment was specifically about RT processors.

Thanks it is clear :smile: now
 

DREW WILEY

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Something like the old Kodak system could be used for fiber-based papers, where the paper was clipped to the OUTSIDE of a drum spinning in a trough of solution, emulsion facing out. But then you're right back where you started in terms of needing a totally dark room. It also would require a high volume of solution.

What big conventional drums are good for, with the print processed INSIDE it, are RC and PET based prints, which don't go floppy when wet.
 

Carnie Bob

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Something like the old Kodak system could be used for fiber-based papers, where the paper was clipped to the OUTSIDE of a drum spinning in a trough of solution, emulsion facing out. But then you're right back where you started in terms of needing a totally dark room. It also would require a high volume of solution.

What big conventional drums are good for, with the print processed INSIDE it, are RC and PET based prints, which don't go floppy when wet.

Hi Drew - K16, my neighbour just bought one for colour work , it would be ok with safelight with the right paper , the digital paper does require total lack of light, but as fare as chemicals its pretty good .
 
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