Paper Fogging - Looking for Solutions

[pentaxuser]

I won 2 boxes of Agfa VCRC MCP Glossy 5x7 and one box of Jessops VCRC Lustre 5x7 in an e-bay auction. Seller said that the boxes had been bought for an A level photography course some 4-5 years ago. I had no reason to doubt this and still don't. So the paper isn't that old. All boxes were in reasonable condition and one Agfa box and the Jessops box were unopened. The other as was stated on e-bay as having been used and had at least 50 sheets left. Actually based on weighing both Agfa boxes it probably has nearly 70 sheets.

The reason I mention these details is that it is relevant to the issue as follows. I have now tested sheets from all three boxes and somewhat strangely, I feel, is that the Jessops sheet is "as new". No fogging at all. Both Agfa sheets from the opened and unopened boxes are equally fogged. So I think I can rule out light fogging and concentrate on age fogging.

I then did the "dev and fix and compare to fix only" test. Sure enough the fix only remained white and the dev and fix turned the palest shade of grey. I say palest because initially on the print test I had wondered if there was any fogging. Tones and contrast looked very good and the paper responded to a change of contrast just as it should.

It was only in comparison to the Jessops sheet that the grey veil became really apparent.

Assuming that all the paper is roughly the same age and I have no reason to doubt this, it seems doubly strange that the cheaper paper, Jessops, should have worn better. Especially when there is evidence that Jessops at least for a period had Agfa make the paper for them. The Jessops filtration matches that for Agfa exactly.

Anyway I hope the above has been interesting and now down to the real point of the thread.

I have had no experience of fogged paper but have done a search in APUG and it seems that benzotriazole is the solution.

Based on a very light grey fogging of the paper, my questions are:

Does benzotriazole remove the veil in the hightlights and also the unexposed border area or can I expect at best only the highlights to brighten?

Does a quick dip(5 secs) in 1/4 strength Farmer's reducer work as well?

I mention this because Nicholas Lindan, in a minority of 1 as far as I can see, mentions success with this. It would be nice if others were able to reinforce his experience.

Finally for UK Apugers only. Where might I get Benzotriazole? I note that Silverprint sells it in quantities of 25g

There are two possible snags with obtaining benzotriazole. (1) Silverprint needs an order of £25 and I don't have the need for materials to this value although if the responses are good I might be able to cobble together an order of £25 to cure the fogging or remove it to almost neglible portions

It would be useful however if there were other places to obtain this which didn't have a min order quantity.

(2) Less important but given that it comes in 25g quantities which is much more than I need what other uses does it have as I am not sure I will risk secondhand paper again?

So is it likely to work and what sources of supply in the U.K are there?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Rich Ullsmith]

It can also be used as a restrainer in other developers. You can get a degree of tone control with some recipes.

What I am wondering is, unless you have some particular interest in this particular box of Agfa, if you can't get clean whites out of the developer pan, why bother? The benzotriazole increases development time significantly. This is not exactly exotic paper you are trying to bring back to life. As you said, there is your Jessops with the clean whites.

I guess if darkroom playtime is not limited, then why not fool around with it. It can take a long time to get results, though.

 

[pentaxuser]

Rich Thanks for quick answer. It is simply that Agfa was my first paper when I started and even allowing for the veil it looks to have promise in terms of tones and detail. How much of an increase in development time? Does this depend on strength used? I hadn't seen this mentioned or it had escaped me?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[snallan]

Benzotriazole can be used as an anti-fogging agent, and also as a cold tone additive for paper developers. You could try Dead Link Removed, as I don't think they have a minimum order policy.

Alternatively, you could try some potassium iodide, as that is a potent anti-foggant. The suggestion would be to add around 0.05g/l of benzotriazole to the developer (about 5ml of a 1% solution per litre), or 0.5g/l of potassium iodide (about 5ml of a 10% solution).

If you would like to experiment with these on the papers you have, I could send you a few grams of each to try.

Altenatively, if you have ever fancied experimenting with lith printing, this could be an ideal use for the Agfa paper.

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks Steve. I may yet take you up on this and cover p&p expenses of course. Lith printing sounds interesting. It has reminded me that Thomas Bertilson, I think, mentioned this use of fogged Agfa paper. It's just that the fogging appears tantilisingly close to being solved - not as much beyond redemption than Thomas's paper seems to have been.

I think that even if the benzotriazole or potassium iodide couldn't cure the problem it might minimise it to the extent that another half grade of contrast or even slightly increased exposure might make up for a slight greyness.

The wife thought the prints were very good as she could "see into the picture" as she puts it. She favours more greyness and detail that I will sacrifice in prints for punchiness. So the paper is very close to being capable of being rescued.

pentaxuser

 

[Paul Verizzo]

Common potassium bromide might be all you need. Of course, it will tend to shift the color the other way from benzotriazole. And whatever you use, you must have some way of measuring it; you will be dealing with very low weights.

I vote for ditching the paper and see if the seller will refund your money.

 

[Iwagoshi]

I found that my stash of donated, 12-year old paper (Kodabrome, Polycontrast) was fogged. Per recommendations from the local camera shop, I use Liquid Orthazite. I'd say it get's out 80% of the fog, from the unexposed to the dulled highlights, let's say a zone 6 fog reduced to zone 8+.

Terry

 

[Claire Senft]

I am with Paul. Common Potassium Bromide can be quite effective in removing fogging. The use of it may cause a bit of a tonal shift to green. The use of it may make the paper slower...require more light... to reach a given level of exposure. If you have some around the darkroom give it a try. It is not usually expensive to buy.

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks for further replies.
Terry. Liquid Orthazite only seems to be available in the U.S. Unless anyone knows any different? Any U.K. suppliers? Calumet is listed in Google as a supplier but a search within Calumet comes up blank.

Anyone any idea how much Benzotriazole slows down development e.g if a developer is normally one minute how much might this be increased with Benzotriazole?

Looking at the Silverprint website it looks as if Martin Reed advocates a stronger solution than Tim Rudman and increasing concentration by adding more if no effect. However I guess if the smallest addition does quite get there then you can continue to add but until what point before it becomes useless to continue and you have to conclude that the paper will never be rid of fog?

So to sum up we have 4 solutions
(1) Orthazite - looks to be unobtainable in the U.K but just as a matter of interest, how good is it compared to benzotriazole and the others below and what is its chemical constituents? Is it related to any of the next three below?
(2) Benzotriazole - how much can be added before getting to the point where it isn't going to work? Cools down prints
(3) Potassium Bromide - same question as above. Does opposite of (2) and imparts warm tone to prints
(4) Potassium Iodide - same question as above - does what in terms of tones to print?

Have just looked at the Retro Photographic site as suggested by Steve. While benzotriazole may have ltd uses (well for me at least) apart from an antifogging agent I can use potassium bromide apparently as an effective anti-convulsant for epileptic dogs!

So if I do get some and any of you APUGers are walking past my house with such dogs just ring the bell. I wonder if a blue black labrador warms up in tone and becomes a warm chocolate brown. Chocolate labradors are quite rare you know compared to the more common black.

Worth a try for next year's Crufts dogshow?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Iwagoshi]

p.u,

Liquid Orthazite contains: Sodium Sulfite and Benzotriazole. I'm not sure what the sodium sulfite does, but the combination seems to work for me. I use about 1oz. (25ml) per liter of developer. I use Dektol 2:1 for 1 minute @ 20*C.

I picked the Calumet link because they have shops in the UK, hmmm. Could they order it for you? Or will you be depending on the kindness of apuggers to send you some?

Terry

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks Terry. That looks like a vote for benzotriazole of sorts. I wonder what sodium sulfite does to it to improve it? Anyone know? Maybe Calumet U.K. could order it but at the end of the day the cost to benefit is going to be very high compared to getting benzotriazole or potassium bromide in the U.K. especially with no guarantee of success even from Orthazite.

I suppose that if Orthazite could almost guarantee a cure for fogging even in quite old paper then the cost of a container of it gets offset against the saving in buying secondhand paper.

Indeed if benzotriazole or potassium bromide work well with my Agfa paper without any real drawbacks in processing time, exposure etc I might risk another shot at buying paper which in theory should be OK but may not be if it is past its first flush of youth.

The advert for Orthazite could read: "Masochists, if you must try old paper then give your self a break and get Orthazite!" You know the wife prefers that old cheery face to the crab apple one that usually comes down from the darkroom." Old Ronald Reagan could do the ad in his inimitable 1950s style on a B&W TV. I can actually see him now in the commercial break on the Phil Silvers or I Love Lucy show.

pentaxuser

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Liquid Orthazite contains about 3% benzotriazole. In plain water, you can get about 1% benzotriazole to dissolve in solution, so the sulfite probably makes it possible to make a more concentrated solution unless there are organic solvents in there that aren't listed on the bottle.

Usually it will help to clean up the borders and highlights on age fogged paper, but you've got to test and see how well it works. If you've got age fog, it's usually a good idea to increase exposure and reduce development time, usually to no more than 1 minute, and sometimes as little as 30 sec.

 

[pentaxuser]

Liquid Orthazite contains about 3% benzotriazole. In plain water, you can get about 1% benzotriazole to dissolve in solution, so the sulfite probably makes it possible to make a more concentrated solution unless there are organic solvents in there that aren't listed on the bottle.

Usually it will help to clean up the borders and highlights on age fogged paper, but you've got to test and see how well it works. If you've got age fog, it's usually a good idea to increase exposure and reduce development time, usually to no more than 1 minute, and sometimes as little as 30 sec.

Thanks for that David. It sounds as if adding more of the 1% solution might be the same as using Orthazite. This is certainly what Martin Reed from Silverprint U.K. seems to suggest and he is a very experienced person.

I'll try the increased exposure reduced dev time strategy. Unlikely I suppose to eliminate fogging by itself but should demonstrate some positive effect which combined with benzotriazole might do the trick or is this me being naive? I am using WT Ilford devloper as I had previously used WT Ilford paper but I had noticed that with Agfa MC premium which is a more neutral blue/black paper it seemed to be fully developed at a 1 minute. However I had stuck to 1.5 mins as a minimum as this seems to be the minimum recommended time for any prints in Ilford WT developer. Might be that a reduction to 30 secs to a minute will make a substantial difference.

The worse that can happen is that I waste a couple of sheets of what was cheap paper anyway.

The paper placed straight into the fixer came out pristine white. Now if anyone knows of a way of printing without developer.....

pentaxuser

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

I'll try the increased exposure reduced dev time strategy. Unlikely I suppose to eliminate fogging by itself but should demonstrate some positive effect which combined with benzotriazole might do the trick or is this me being naive?

Increased exposure, reduced development time and benzotriazole will often reduce or eliminate fog, but it might do other things as well, like not give you the contrast range you wanted from that grade of paper, but then once you know what it does, you might find other uses for it. So experiment.

 

[PVia]

I've been printing on some older Agfa MC118, a beautiful paper...using Dektol 1:2 with 30ml of 10% benzo solution per liter of dev, about 1 1/2 minutes. After complete print processing, I bleach with a ferri solution for 60-90 seconds, rinse, fix and rinse again, then wash.