Paper drum processing - FAQ?

[tendim]

G'day.

I'll be moving out of my house and into a condo within the next few months, and wanted to do some prep work as I'll be losing my darkroom.

In my new unit, at most I'll have a small bathroom which I can make light tight to install an enlarger. This will do fine for loading film, so I am not concerned about film processing. For paper processing, I'm looking for alternatives to trays. I know that there are drum processors out there, and I've done a bit of research and found some information, but thought I would turn to the experts.

So.. Some questions!

• Is there a "paper drum processing FAQ" anywhere?
• I've seen some setups such as the Jobo CPP-2 which keep your chemicals at an exact temperature. How important is this? If I keep my chemicals in small bottles a tub of water at 20 degrees Celsius, and pour the chemicals from there into the drum, would that be sufficient?
• When you are using a drum, do you treat everything as "one-shot"? Or, can I re-use developer that has been used for a single sheet?
• With regards to bases, what should I look for? Variable speed? Multi-speed? I believe I read that there is one model which changes direction to balance things out. Anything specific?
• Is there a ratio of drum size to base size? Or, as long as the drum can fit on the base, I'm okay?
• How much chemistry would I need for a single 14x11 print? Or does it depend on manufacturer?
• I've read that, with constant agitation, you will have contrastier images than tray processing. I'll be using Ilford MGIV FB and MGIV RC when Ilford chemicals (Bromorphen) -- any suggestions on starting times?

Thanks for any input!

Cheers,
-Patrick

 

[ic-racer]

Temp control not needed for B&W paper.

Time/contrast should not be different from tray.

Check out the Nova slot processors also if you don't want to use trays.

 

[michaelbsc]

Agree. Slot Processors are the answer for space challenged darkrooms.

For a small bathroom the unheated 8x10 B&W processor is small enough to tear down between sessions. The waterbath models are excellent to leave set up, but quite a bit to tear down between print sessions.

 

[MattKing]

In the last while I have printed prints for two APUG print exchanges (Postcard and Blind Print) and one set of Christmas cards using Cibachrome drums and either an Ilford roller drum motor or a Beseler roller drum motor.

All of my use of the drums has been with black and white RC papers (Ilford, Kodak and Oriental Seagull).

The Ilford motor doesn't reverse automatically. I just manually reverse the drums every 30 seconds. The Beseler motor does reverse automatically. In the past I have used a Unicolor motor roller with a reversing function that didn't work. I have a non-reversing Premier motor roller as a backup.

I can process everything from small prints (the postcards were on 4x6 paper, four to an 8x10 tube) up to 11x14. I may be able to do 16x20, but I think that the paper will overlap itself in the 16 inch tubes I have.

I have the tubes and caps for four 8x10s at a time. The caps will also fit on the 11x14 tube and the two 16 inch tubes I have.

I am also able to set my bathroom up for tray processing, but the set-up/tear-down time is longer.

This post in another thread shows the set-up with the Beseler motor and the equipment I use for film processing:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

I use the Cibachrome drums because they are small and will work with the Ilford motor. I have and could use Beseler and Unicolor drums as well.

With respect to your specific questions:

1) I don't know of any FAQ
2) I just use room temperature chemicals and adjust the wash water to match (usually 20 C)
3) I re-use chemistry. I have six wide mouth bottles and three small graduated cylinders. Each of the developer, stop and fixer start out in their own dedicated larger bottle. I pour from them into dedicated small graduated cylinders, and from there into the tubes. After each development stage is complete, I pour the chemistry out into another dedicated larger bottle. After all of a particular chemical (developer, stop or fix) has made its way from one larger bottle, through the tubes, into another larger bottle, the larger bottles get switched. I do this until the chemistry's capacity is used up
4) and 5) The Beseler motor roller in the link I've posted does reverse if so requested. That is convenient, but not necessary. I have used Uniroller roller motors and the aforementioned Ilford roller motor as well. The Beseler, Uniroller and Premier models allow use of the longer tubes without adjustment. You need special extension to use the Ilford unit with larger tubes. The Ilford unit does make it just about impossible for the tubes to roll off the end and fall over. You have to be a bit careful with the others to avoid that. Some Beseler and Unicolour tubes have a bigger diameter
6) The size of each "shot" of chemistry varies a bit with the tubes. In the Cibachrome tubes I use 100ml for the 8x10 tubes, 150ml for the 11x14 tube and 200ml for the 16 inch tubes, but I expect that that could be fine-tuned
7) I don't see any contrast difference between the roller processed papers and well agitated tray processed papers.

The advantages? It is easy to standardize on the shorter development and other times (within the acceptable ranges) and get very consistent results. It is also quick to set-up and tear-down, and it is pleasant to do much of the work in the light and, in my case, with a nice window view .

The disadvantages? If you don't have multiple tubes, you will soon tire of all the tube drying you have to do. Also, you lose the joy of watching the image appear.

 

[tendim]

Thanks for the responses so far. I've read a bit about the Nova processors, but given cost and availability, I have easier access to used bases and tubes than a slot processor at the moment (in fact, I have never seen one used!).

Agree. Slot Processors are the answer for space challenged darkrooms.

I've shied away from slot processors because I still don't have enough table space to place it on; the sink is rather narrow, and while the bathtub might work, I'd rather work at table-level if possible. I guess it would be possible to cover the bathtub with a table-top to create a new surface, but then I've also got to figure out how to mount a safelamp.

The disadvantages? If you don't have multiple tubes, you will soon tire of all the tube drying you have to do. Also, you lose the joy of watching the image appear.

I saw this mentioned somewhere else in another thread, but wasn't sure if it was for film or paper. Does this mean that, if processing paper, the tube has to be completely dry before using it for a second sheet?

Thanks,
-10d

 

[Konical]

Good Evening, -10d,

If you're using RC paper in a color processing drum, just be sure that all residual processing chemicals are thoroughly rinsed out. If the inside of the drum has a little water adhering to the sides, it won't normally cause any problem; about the worst that would happen is a very slight additional and inconsequential dilution of the developer for the next sheet. That being said, I'd tend to use a paper towel to give the inside of the drum a quick wiping.

Konical

 

[MattKing]

For drying things around the darkroom, I haunt the thrift stores.

Old "tea" towels work great - the gaudier the better.

Get a bunch, and throw them in the wash each time you finish a darkroom session.

The drums don't need to be absolutely dry, but if they are very damp the undeveloped prints can stick and be awkward to load.

 

[jeroldharter]

The simple, low budget way to go is single tray processing rather than tubes.

I assume you are doing black and white printing. Jobo type tubes are meant for RC paper, not fiber paper even though some people say they work OK. But you can only do one print at a time unless you have a multitude of different size drums which can be expensive. Plus they take up a lot of room and require space on which to dry.

Single tray processing would require just 2 trays including one for hold/wash.

Get several 2000ml plastic beakers from US plastics. They are small and fit easily on a counter. Chemical use would be modest. You can batch process which can save a lot of time over drums. The cost is very low. Cleanup and storage are easy. The trays nest and so do the beakers.

I started doing single tray processing a couple years ago and prefer it now. You do need a good water supply though.

 

[michaelbsc]

My experience with drums, which I do use for prints larger than my slot processor, is that the unidrum tubes with the ridges molded inside are easier to load when not completely dry, and easier to unload when the print is wet.


Maybe I'm just a klutz, it the smooth sided drums seem to stick to the paperike glue.

If I'm merely missing the proper trick someone enlighten me. If be happy to use the Cibachrome drum I have if I didn't have to wrestle with it.

 

[Konical]

Good Evening, Michael,

I agree with you: drums with internal ridging, such as the Chromegas I use, are preferable when it comes to retrieving the processed print. Even with a smooth drum such as a Cibachrome, however, retrieval isn't particularly difficult. Just slip a thumbnail under one corner, get enough of a grip to twist the print edge toward the center of the drum, and it will peel away very quickly. I actually don't use a drum very often for prints (usually just when I have a quick contact sheet or two to make and want to keep chemical quantities small to avoid wastage); my main reason for using a drum with provisions for dividers and spacers is to facilitate sheet film processing. If I were forced to use only a Cibachrome drum for occasional print processing, I wouldn't have any cause for complaint.

Konical

 

[tendim]

Thank you everyone for the kind insight that you've all provided. Given what has been mentioned in this thread, it would seem that a slot processor would be the better solution for me in the long term. That said, at least I now know what to look for.

Thanks again!

 

[Robert Hale]

Hi tendim,

In order of your list:-

1/ I have not seen one yet.
2/ I have just tested MG IV RC with Multi Grade developer using a Jobo CPE 11 at Jobo speed 2 ( approximately 52 r.p.m. ) and found:-
A/ at 19 C the print is very slightly thinner/fainter than at 20 C, 21 C, 22 C, 23 C and 24 C for developer and ambient temperature. At 24 C one might think that there is a very, very slight colour change towards a richer colour.
B/ That developing times above 50 seconds through to 160 seconds at 20 – 21 C do not appear to change contrast or depth of colour. I use 60 secs of rotation and ignore about another 20 – 30 secs fill and empty.
C/ I use 120 cc per fill for two sheets of 8 x10 and recover the developer back into the square black holding bottle, from which I refill the fill pottle so that the chemistry rotates.
Stop is Kodak stop at standard mix and I allow the drum to rotate 16 times ( 8 forward and 8 back ) this could probably be reduced to 10 rotations safely.
Fixer is Ilford Rapid and that gets 60 secs of rotation and is recovered back into a pale square bottle.
I wash the prints in the drum in about 200 cc of water at no. 2 rotation for 30 secs; dump water; refill for 60 secs; dump water; refill for 240 secs; dump water.
Air dry propped up against a wall in the passage on an old towel.

If I am being fussy or testing then I mix developer for half a day’s printing which is about 240 cc plus 16 cc of developer ?? ( I am not at home so can’t check these mixing numbers ) and expect to print up to 16 8 x 10 prints
The developer at these temperatures lasts for 6 hours, at least.
The fixer, for a full 600 cc will last at least a week if it has not been depleted.
The Jobo CP?? range is a neat device ( again I am not at home so I am guessing ) is about 20 to 24 inches, 50 cm to 60 cm long and about 8 to 10 inches, 20 to 25 cm wide and is not very heavy when drained of tank/heater water; in other words it can easily be moved in and out of temporary darkrooms. It must be used on a level surface so that the chemistry is evenly distributed during rotation.

If you never plug it in until you have filled it with water in the main tank you can not turn it on and burn out the water heaters !!!!!! which is very simply done, particularly in a cold climate.

Frankly I would put owning any of the Jobo CP range for RC work immediately after buying the best enlarger lens I could afford, budget wise.

I use the 2840 range of drums that will handle 4x5, thro to 12 x 16.

I do dry the drums before loading as they can drop water on the undeveloped print leaving white patches on the print.

Regards

Rob