Paper developing newbie.... chemical advice

[hoganlia]

Hi.... probably a much repeated topic but I've been looking at threads and can't seem to spot exactly what I am looking for.

I'm setting up a bathroom homelab darkroom to print both 35mm and 120 film. I develop using Adonal or Rodinal and for Adox CHS II 100 and Adox developer. Now I want to take the next step and get my work on paper.

I'll be doing only 5x7 for a while and most probably an Ilford multigrade paper (depending on price and availability to start out with but other suggestions for a starter like me would be muchly appreciated).

So far I have decided on the stop (Bellini Eco Stop) and Ilford Rapid fix but I would like some advice on a developer. I would prefer something with low toxicity and odor (ventilated bathroom but small) and also as ecologically friendly as possible. Price and shelf life also need to be considered.

Many thanks for any advice in advance!

 

[mshchem]

ADOX ADOTOL Konstant II Papierentwickler zum Ansatz von 1000 ml - fotoimpex.de Analoge Fotografie

Pulverentwickler für Neutralschwarze Bildtöne und hohe Ausnutzbarkeit. Jetzt mit ADOX CAPTURA Technologie. Das zweite Produkt aus der neuen ADOX Pulverproduktion die mit ...

www.fotoimpex.de

 

[hoganlia]

ADOX ADOTOL Konstant II Papierentwickler zum Ansatz von 1000 ml - fotoimpex.de Analoge Fotografie

Pulverentwickler für Neutralschwarze Bildtöne und hohe Ausnutzbarkeit. Jetzt mit ADOX CAPTURA Technologie. Das zweite Produkt aus der neuen ADOX Pulverproduktion die mit ...

www.fotoimpex.de

Gosh, that looks very nice indeed, and the price is especially nice!

 

[xkaes]

There are a ton of paper developers that have low toxicity (whatever that means), low odor (whatever that means), and low environmental impact (whatever that means).

You really should concentrate on what you want the developer to do -- ex. fast development, long life-span, low/high contrast, exposure time, great blacks, low cost, easy mixing, temperature limits, warm-tone, etc..

That will narrow it down -- but you'll get a million suggestions without you considering any of that, anyway.

 

[hoganlia]

There are a ton of paper developers that have low toxicity (whatever that means), low odor (whatever that means), and low environmental impact (whatever that means).

You really should concentrate on what you want to developer to do -- ex. fast development, long life-span, low/high contrast, exposure time, great blacks, low cost, easy mixing, temperature limits, warm-tone, etc..

That will narrow it down -- but you'll get a million suggestions without you considering any of that, anyway.

Thanks for your reply. What on earth would make you think I would not consider any advice given here on a forum filled with people who know far, far more than I do? Of course, I am a newbie in this but once upon a time, we all were, weren't we?

You are quite right, asking the right question(s) gets the best answer, and obviously, asking a stupid question... well... we know what happens.

Thanks for the pointers.

 

[pentaxuser]

Gosh, that looks very nice indeed, and the price is especially nice!

Not wishing to turn this into a competition between manufacturers but for 5 euros you get what appears to be 1L of developer.

What wasn't clear was how much this ís diluted, if at all, to make a working stock but there was no mention of it being diluted

On the other hand you can buy 5L of Ilford Multigrade developer which is diluted 1+9 so that 50L of working solution

You'd spend 250 Euros for the same amount of Adox

Yes I do not know how much it would cost to buy a 5L of Ilford Multigrade Develop in Spain but I cannot believe it would be as much as 250 Euros

It might be worth checking Ilford prices in Spain. From Fotoimpex the price appears to be about 58. 45 euros

pentaxuser

 

[hoganlia]

Not wishing to turn this into a competition between manufacturers but for 5 euros you get what appears to be 1L of developer.

What wasn't clear was how much this ís diluted, if at all, to make a working stock but there was no mention of it being diluted

On the other hand you can buy 5L of Ilford Multigrade developer which is diluted 1+9 so that 50L of working solution

You'd spend 250 Euros for the same amount of Adox

Yes I do not know how much it would cost to buy a 5L of Ilford Multigrade Develop in Spain but I cannot believe it would be as much as 250 Euros

It might be worth checking Ilford prices in Spain. From Fotoimpex the price appears to be about 58. 45 euros

pentaxuser

Thanks a lot, that really is worth taking into consideration. I've never used a powder before and yes, the economic aspect is important to me as a pensioner and a learner. The paper itself is another factor. Much appreciated!

Fotoimpext has Ilford MG 5L at €49

 

[bernard_L]

Not wishing to turn this into a competition between manufacturers but for 5 euros you get what appears to be 1L of developer.

What wasn't clear was how much this ís diluted, if at all, to make a working stock but there was no mention of it being diluted

My experience with Adox rapid fixer Adofix Plus. Cheaper than Ilford, but at equivalent dilution 1+4, clearing time for a clip of film was 1min versus 30s for Ilford rapid fixer, consistent with 1/2 concentration.
On the other hand, Fomafix is equally cheap, but performs 30s clearing time at 1+4 dilution.
So I would rather suggest Foma paper developer; cannot provide user experience since I mix my own D-72.
I support your choice of Ilford RC (Deluxe) an excellent product.

 

[Milpool]

The good news is it will be difficult to go wrong on this. Regarding the print itself, most paper developers will produce essentially indistinguishable results (they are all low-odour as well), so my suggestion would be to avoid overthinking it and get to work on printing. There can be differences in shelf/storage life so that might end up being a factor when it comes to cost but it really depends on how much you print and how often. These are typically things you figure out as you go, and you can switch developers quite seamlessly if required.

 

[MattKing]

I hope you get as much enjoyment out of printing as I do.
With very few exceptions (e.g. Amidol), paper developers are very similar. And most of them will satisfy your expressed criteria in similar ways.
If I were you I would research which developers you can easily access, and then provide us with a list of those and ask for our comments.

 

[hoganlia]

My experience with Adox rapid fixer Adofix Plus. Cheaper than Ilford, but at equivalent dilution 1+4, clearing time for a clip of film was 1min versus 30s for Ilford rapid fixer, consistent with 1/2 concentration.
On the other hand, Fomafix is equally cheap, but performs 30s clearing time at 1+4 dilution.
So I would rather suggest Foma paper developer; cannot provide user experience since I mix my own D-72.
I support your choice of Ilford RC (Deluxe) an excellent product.

You are right about the Adofix plus Bernard. I've been using it in developing for nearly three years and have never had any problem with it. I hadn't thought about the paper aspect, but as I feel confident with it for my negatives... why not?
I'll check the Foma developer as well.
The step into paper developing is quite a challenge (I love challenges) and I have been studying for a while and discovering it's a Brave New World! What fun!

 

[hoganlia]

I hope you get as much enjoyment out of printing as I do.
With very few exceptions (e.g. Amidol), paper developers are very similar. And most of them will satisfy your expressed criteria in similar ways.
If I were you I would research which developers you can easily access, and then provide us with a list of those and ask for our comments.

A good choice of books my friend. I am almost finished the Negative and have already started The Print.
Re availability, living in the EU has it's advantages for shopping around, but prices vary greatly from place to place and there seems to be little logic to the differences. I was thinking mostly of Ilford developers because they generally seem to be in stock in most places. Paper, on the other hand is very eratic (in price and avalability) from what I can make out. The Ilford RC papers especially.
I was looking at Bellini because their colour developer is superb... but it is rather expensive.
My needs centre on me getting used to process first and learning hands on before being "creative". For that reason I plan only to do 5x7 paper until I feel confident enough to move upward or onard or .... wayward!
Thanks for the advice.

btw... I am only thinking of B&W developing.

 

[Buzz-01]

Adotol to mix 5 liters is only 10 euros at Fotoimpex, which is not too bad. It is a little cumbersome to mix because it is a powder which you need to dissolve in water, and you MUST mix all at once.
I mixed it in a large bucket and then divided the mixed solution into 500ml PET bottles. Completely filled and stored in the dark you can keep them for several months. You could use one bottle for two sessions if the time is not too long between them and if you don't process too much paper per session. But especially when you first start out, just use a fresh developer every session. At least until you get a feeling of what's going on and when the developer starts to go out. Nothing worse than an evening of headaches as to why your prints turn out so badly and then you realize the developer has depleted.

Neutol NE is 17 euros for 1 liter and is a liquid concentrate, which makes for 8 to 15 liters of working solution. It's easy to mix the volume you need for a single session and about the same price as Adotol Konstant per volume of working solution. I was not able to use it more than one session, the second session would give me mediocre results when reusing the same developer for two sessions. Could be me though as I only used Neutol a few times.

Currently I'm trying out Fomatol LQN, which seems to work just as nice as Adotol Konstant. It comes in smaller bottles, which makes the keeping properties of the concentrate less of an issue. In this developer my Foma and Ilford RC papers need the full 1.5 minutes to get proper blacks, where 1 minute seemed to be enough in Adotol Konstant.

For paper, Ilford MGRC DeLuxe is really really good and you can't go wrong with it.
Fomaspeed Variant usually is much cheaper here in continental Europe and, while Ilford is superior, Foma also makes very good paper. Ilford gives a little more punch to your images IMO.
I use both papers, just stocked up today on both of them again.

 

[Pieter12]

Legacy Eco-pro. https://www.digitaltruth.com/products/product.php?brand=ecopro&link=ecopro-paperdev

 

[hoganlia]

The good news is it will be difficult to go wrong on this. Regarding the print itself, most paper developers will produce essentially indistinguishable results (they are all low-odour as well), so my suggestion would be to avoid overthinking it and get to work on printing. There can be differences in shelf/storage life so that might end up being a factor when it comes to cost but it really depends on how much you print and how often. These are typically things you figure out as you go, and you can switch developers quite seamlessly if required.

Overthinking?

That is me to a tee.

Thanks for the encouragement!

 

[hoganlia]

Adotol to mix 5 liters is only 10 euros at Fotoimpex, which is not too bad. It is a little cumbersome to mix because it is a powder which you need to dissolve in water, and you MUST mix all at once.
I mixed it in a large bucket and then divided the mixed solution into 500ml PET bottles. Completely filled and stored in the dark you can keep them for several months. You could use one bottle for two sessions if the time is not too long between them and if you don't process too much paper per session. But especially when you first start out, just use a fresh developer every session. At least until you get a feeling of what's going on and when the developer starts to go out. Nothing worse than an evening of headaches as to why your prints turn out so badly and then you realize the developer has depleted.

Neutol NE is 17 euros for 1 liter and is a liquid concentrate, which makes for 8 to 15 liters of working solution. It's easy to mix the volume you need for a single session and about the same price as Adotol Konstant per volume of working solution. I was not able to use it more than one session, the second session would give me mediocre results when reusing the same developer for two sessions. Could be me though as I only used Neutol a few times.

Currently I'm trying out Fomatol LQN, which seems to work just as nice as Adotol Konstant. It comes in smaller bottles, which makes the keeping properties of the concentrate less of an issue. In this developer my Foma and Ilford RC papers need the full 1.5 minutes to get proper blacks, where 1 minute seemed to be enough in Adotol Konstant.

For paper, Ilford MGRC DeLuxe is really really good and you can't go wrong with it.
Fomaspeed Variant usually is much cheaper here in continental Europe and, while Ilford is superior, Foma also makes very good paper. Ilford gives a little more punch to your images IMO.
I use both papers, just stocked up today on both of them again.

But especially when you first start out, just use a fresh developer every session

This is exactly what I had in mind, so thanks for the confrmation. Excuse the pun, but I am rather working in the dark.

(I'll take a look at those solutions, thanks.)

What fabulous people you all are... I've learned so much today. Now I just need my enlarger to arive... but that's another story!

 

[hoganlia]

Legacy Eco-pro. https://www.digitaltruth.com/products/product.php?brand=ecopro&link=ecopro-paperdev

I don't think tha is sold in Europe... I jast had a quick check but thanks anyway.

 

[koraks]

@hoganlia whatever you can get your hands on in Spain. Given shipping costs, I'd pick your favorite/popular local supplier and buy what they happen to sell and that (sort of) meets your requirements.

In terms of environmentally friendly - pick one of the 'eco' developers, and most importantly, use only what you need. My default working stock is 500ml and I use flat-bottomed trays for prints up to 24x30cm. I could get away with 200-300ml if I watch my agitation. For any given paper developer, this will easily get you through a printing session.

If you print infrequently, decant the unused developer concentrate in smaller bottles so that there's no air on top. This will make it last longer. Also eco-friendly since it cuts down waste.

I'm a bit skeptical about the eco-unfriendliness of regular developer since it oxidizes into byproducts that won't really affect wastewater treatment and downstream water systems much, especially given how small the analog community still is.

 

[hoganlia]

@hoganlia whatever you can get your hands on in Spain. Given shipping costs, I'd pick your favorite/popular local supplier and buy what they happen to sell and that (sort of) meets your requirements.

In terms of environmentally friendly - pick one of the 'eco' developers, and most importantly, use only what you need. My default working stock is 500ml and I use flat-bottomed trays for prints up to 24x30cm. I could get away with 200-300ml if I watch my agitation. For any given paper developer, this will easily get you through a printing session.

If you print infrequently, decant the unused developer concentrate in smaller bottles so that there's no air on top. This will make it last longer. Also eco-friendly since it cuts down waste.

I'm a bit skeptical about the eco-unfriendliness of regular developer since it oxidizes into byproducts that won't really affect wastewater treatment and downstream water systems much, especially given how small the analog community still is.

Also interesting comments re quantities... I'm not up to that part yet, but it is at the back of my mind. Re storage, as I have been developing my own negatives for alsmot three years, I am pretty much in command there. Re the eco-friendly... I am not sure how much damage I can do but because of that I have a municipal permit that ensures envirnmental disposal just in case.

 

[xkaes]

What on earth would make you think I would not consider any advice given here on a forum filled with people who know far, far more than I do?

I'm not assuming you wouldn't consider it. And you should consider it. My point is just that because a very experienced photographer prefers developer A over B, does not mean that you will. You'll find an equally experienced photographer that prefers the opposite. They all have their reasons -- and they are all legitimate for them. That's why I suggested thinking about what characteristics you want in a developer. It's much like buying a car -- depends. What do you want in a car? Besides friends, of course!

 

[bernard_L]

For paper, Ilford MGRC DeLuxe is really really good and you can't go wrong with it.
Fomaspeed Variant usually is much cheaper here in continental Europe and, while Ilford is superior, Foma also makes very good paper.

In my experience (printing, densitometer) Fomabrom variant 111 is as good as I'll need, and as good as Ilford MGIV (haven't tried V/classic).
But Fomaspeed "velvet" is inferior to Ilfospeed RC deluxe (44/Pearl): lower Dmax, whites slightly grey.

@hoganlia: Fomaspeed may be OK for learning, but make sure you try some Ilfospeed, and your eyes tell you if the difference (if you see a difference) is worth the extra cost.

 

[Buzz-01]

In my experience (printing, densitometer) Fomabrom variant 111 is as good as I'll need, and as good as Ilford MGIV (haven't tried V/classic).
But Fomaspeed "velvet" is inferior to Ilfospeed RC deluxe (44/Pearl): lower Dmax, whites slightly grey.

@hoganlia: Fomaspeed may be OK for learning, but make sure you try some Ilfospeed, and your eyes tell you if the difference (if you see a difference) is worth the extra cost.

Yes (just for completeness as TS states to be new to the printing hobby: Ilfospeed was Ilford's RC paper a loooong time ago) Ilford Multigrade DeLuxe paper definitely is the superior product of the two. So if you want top quality and can spare the cash then go with Ilford.
If not or you want to keep the cost as low as you can, don't rule out Fomaspeed Variant as it's still good value for money and will certainly produce good prints.
But you should definitely see for yourself, as bernard_L says!

I did notice that Foma papers are a bit more sensitive to safelight, you need an absolute red light for it because any other light will fog the paper within minutes. And then you won't be able to get pure whites in your prints.

 

[koraks]

And then you won't be able to get pure whites in your prints.

More importantly, all your highlight separation will have gone down the drain long before that point. As you said, it needs a red safelight. Some testing doesn't hurt, either...

 

[mshchem]

Don't buy what you might not use.

 

[MattKing]

Don't buy what you might not use.

On the other hand, don't delay getting started because you are unsure whether you can use up an entire container.
It is better to buy slightly more than you can end up using in a reasonable time, and therefore end up having to discard a small portion of a bottle, than it is to buy too little and end up regularly running out when you want to print.
You won't be able to accurately gage this until you have enough printing experience to know how much and how frequently you are going to print.
One advantage of packaged powder chemicals is that you can buy two, mix up one, and leave the other on a shelf for a very long time without worrying about it going "bad". Then when you finish the first batch, you can mix the second and, at relative leisure, order a replacement to take its place on the storage shelf.
Unopened containers of liquid chemicals can also be handled this way, but they don't last quite as long when on the shelf.