Paper developers for machine use

[Tom Kershaw]

Could someone give an overview of criteria for paper developers designed for use in a "machine" environment such as a roller-transport processor? As far as I understand, the usual features are strength, ability to be replenished, resistance to oxidation, and reduced chemical fogging at higher processing temperatures; however I'd welcome other insights.

To give an example, Fotospeed market a developer specifically for machine use; CD11, a multigrade developer; DV10, and a PQ developer; PD-5.

http://www.fotospeed.com/productbygroup.asp?PrGrp=121

Tom

 

[Lowell Huff]

High dilution and tonal quality.

 

[Mike Wilde]

Ilford/Harman had/has a couple of developers for this purpose. I have not used them. Occasionally I will feed a lot of Dektol into my RA-4 fujimoto cp-31. I usally only need to run it for a few hours, since the machine can wind though so many prints. Usually I use it when I have to crank out a set of head shots for a theatre front of house display. I have shot them in a studio set up, so contrast is under control, and development is standard, so find the exposure time for the first print, and the rest are all the same. The machine swallows RC prints as fast as I can expose and feed them in.

I have been tempted to try Acsco 130, since the Glycin is resistant to aerial oxidation, and really comes to life above 75F, so it should do well. The need has not arisen to rull the processor for b&w since I had this thought.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

I ran my Thermaphot yesterday for the first time in 6 months, I had almost forgotten the real advantages in speed for RC prints. However, the machine is loaded with Fotospeed PD-5 (a standard PQ developer), and Champion Amfix, both diluted 1+4, but yesterday towards the end of my printing session I started to get some orange staining on the prints. At the start of the session with fresh solutions I ran a 20x24 RC ILFORD MGIV RC GLOSS print without issue.

Previously with the Thermaphot ACP 505 I used Fotospeed CD11 machine developer, and CF41 machine fixer; I did get some staining to begin with but this subsided completely.

Tom

 

[Ian Grant]

Sounds like the fixers contaminated, or near the end of it's life. I used to use Hypam in an old Ilforprint machine and it needed to be fresh.

Ian

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Sounds like the fixers contaminated, or near the end of it's life. I used to use Hypam in an old Ilforprint machine and it needed to be fresh.

Ian

Why the fixer? I used 1000ml concentrate (+ 4500ml water to make working solution) from a 5lt container of concentrate opened maybe 3 months ago, is that marginal? I suspected the developer, possibly PD-5 doesn't develop the paper quickly enough, whereas a more active developer might do.

I have not had any issues with staining during tray processing of RC or fibre base using concentrate from the same container.

Tom

 

[Ian Grant]

Spent PQ dev rarely if ever stains but if there's a fixing problem then staining occurs quickly, and you have said towards the end of the session which indicates something is deteriorating.

I seem to remember something about Amfix deteriorating stored dilute, I used it intensively for a short spell in the late 70's buying it in 25 litre drums, then returned to Hypam. Amfix is a lot stronger in it's action and causes image bleaching quite quickly if you over fix,.

Ian

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Spent PQ dev rarely if ever stains but if there's a fixing problem then staining occurs quickly, and you have said towards the end of the session which indicates something is deteriorating.

I seem to remember something about Amfix deteriorating stored dilute, I used it intensively for a short spell in the late 70's buying it in 25 litre drums, then returned to Hypam. Amfix is a lot stronger in it's action and causes image bleaching quite quickly if you over fix,.

Ian

And so Amfix may not be the best choice of fixer for roller transport machines? Notably, the label on the Amfix container shows a graphic depicting a roller transport mechanism, indicating dilution of 1+4. Perhaps I should try 1+9. If Hypam is less vigorous in its action, and this feature is seen as positive in machine processing, what are the advantages of the solutions marketed specifically for machine use; purely replenishment?

 

[Ian Grant]

Machine use fixers have greater buffering but are often used quite strong. Presumably the Thermaphot is replenishing the fixer during use. Needs some thought.

Ian

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Machine use fixers have greater buffering but are often used quite strong. Presumably the Thermaphot is replenishing the fixer during use. Needs some thought.

Ian

I have the replenishment switched off at the moment. I've only put through about 40 8x10s equivalent so exhaustion shouldn't be an issue.

When I used the Fotospeed CF41 fix, I used a dilution of 1+4 as instructed. The PDF for the ILFORD 2000RT series also indicates a working solution dilution of 1+4, and suggests vigorous stirring of the fixer is important. However, I would have thought that the roller transport action would aid the homogenisation of the fix, although I do admit to mixing the fix solution via inversion agitation in a 5000ml container rather than stirring.

Tom

 

[Keith Tapscott.]

Could someone give an overview of criteria for paper developers designed for use in a "machine" environment such as a roller-transport processor? As far as I understand, the usual features are strength, ability to be replenished, resistance to oxidation, and reduced chemical fogging at higher processing temperatures; however I'd welcome other insights.

To give an example, Fotospeed market a developer specifically for machine use; CD11, a multigrade developer; DV10, and a PQ developer; PD-5.

http://www.fotospeed.com/productbygroup.asp?PrGrp=121

Tom

I would contact Fotospeed or Ilford directly for an explanation. AFAIK, developers and fixers for machine processing are formulated to be more robust and longer lasting due to the higher working temperatures and print-capacity, but there might be much more to it than that.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Keith,

I tried Fotospeed earlier in the week, but they were not able to tell me much more than the machine chemistry was more 'robust'.

Tom

 

[Keith Tapscott.]

Keith,

I tried Fotospeed earlier in the week, but they were not able to tell me much more than the machine chemistry was more 'robust'.

Tom

I have a feeling that it might have something to do with the possibilty of standard developers and fixers having their components precipitating out of solution at the higher working temperatures. I suspect that the concentrates are more viscous for the machine devs and fixer as well.
Try Ilford for an explanation.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

I have a feeling that it might have something to do with the possibilty of standard developers and fixers having their components precipitating out of solution at the higher working temperatures. I suspect that the concentrates are more viscous for the machine devs and fixer as well.
Try Ilford for an explanation.

ILFORD provide PDF documentation for their product so may also be more able to answer technical questions. Your comment on precipitation could well make sense.

Tom

 

[Ian Grant]

Tom, I read the post as saying the machine hadn't been used for 6 moths and was full of Amfix. But even if you used fresh fixer it's far better to turn on the replenishment. I was assuming

I don't know the Thermaphot but usually the fix & dev time are short so any significant usage will lengthen the fixer times in particular, so using replenishment is important, Amfix or any good concentrated fixer should be fine but you'll need to see what works best for you.

In my Ilfoprint machine I used Hypam on a bleed basis and this always worked perfectly. I have a very detailed May & Baker Data-sheet for Amfix and machine processing etc but unfortunaely it's in the UK.

Ian

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Ian,

The fix was freshly mixed yesterday. I had stored the machine empty.

Photo of print (crop from 8x10), showing stain:

Tom.

 

[Ian Grant]

That's what I figured on re-reading

It's definitely looks like a "Fixer" problem seeing the image, caused by insufficient fixing and exposure to light, once the stain's there re-fixing doesn't remove it.

I've had that problem when pushing fixer too hard and turning the light on too early.

In your case it's due to the fix time being set by the processor, 40 prints may well be enough to mean the fix time needs increasing and you don't have that option, tray processing times allow a good margin which covers these problems but machines don't. Replenishment would solve the problem.

You might get away with using a fixer slightly more dilute if replenished. I'd suggest using some 35mm film to test the clearing times occasionally.

Ian

 

[Tom Kershaw]

In your case it's due to the fix time being set by the processor, 40 prints may well be enough to mean the fix time needs increasing and you don't have that option, tray processing times allow a good margin which covers these problems but machines don't. Replenishment would solve the problem.

Ian

Ian,

On the ACP 505 one can alter the processing time via a control knob. Yesterday I ran the machine at room temperature (about 21ºC), but the temperature can be raised to 50ºC, evidently too hot for black & white work. When using the CD11 developer, I was processing at approx. 30ºC, and so I may be safer (within margins) by using machine developer. Another question is whether Fotospeed CF41 machine fix, or ILFORD 2000RT fixer, offers an advantage over Amfix or Hypam...


Tom.

 

[Ian Grant]

It's possible a different fix might help, but you probably aren't really going to have the through-put to warrant it. Replenishment eliminates these problems. Amfix was sold alongside Suprol for machine processing but always with a recommended replenishment rate. Regardless what fixer you use you'll need to replenish.

Often with machine developers the difference is just a higher bromide level, perhaps additional IBT (Benzotriazole) as well, to prevent any slight fogging which might occur at higher temperatures.

Ian

 

[Tom Kershaw]

It's possible a different fix might help, but you probably aren't really going to have the through-put to warrant it. Replenishment eliminates these problems. Amfix was sold alongside Suprol for machine processing but always with a recommended replenishment rate. Regardless what fixer you use you'll need to replenish.

Ian

I understand that up to reasonable limits, silver concentration is not so much of an issue in the processing of resin coated papers compared to fibre base papers, which would mean replenishment should be adequate.

Replenishment eliminates these problems. Amfix was sold alongside Suprol for machine processing but always with a recommended replenishment rate.

Isn't Suprol also a PQ developer formula, similar to or the same as, PD-5? Suprol only seems to be available in 1lt packagings from Firstcall Photographic, while Multicontrast (presumably an equivalent to ILFORD Multigrade) is available in 5lt packagings.

Do you know if there are data sheets for the black & white Champion products online?

Tom

 

[Ian Grant]

Champion are poor at giving info etc online you need to be a registered customer, unlike M&B with their superb printed data-sheets in the 70's/80's.

Suprol's not far different too PQ Universal,Fotospeeds PQ dev is quite similar too. Champion may sell larger quantities on a contract basis, I lost touch with their UK operations & their sales chain changed quite substantially over the last few years.

Ian

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Champion are poor at giving info etc online you need to be a registered customer, unlike M&B with their superb printed data-sheets in the 70's/80's.

Suprol's not far different too PQ Universal,Fotospeeds PQ dev is quite similar too. Champion may sell larger quantities on a contract basis, I lost touch with their UK operations & their sales chain changed quite substantially over the last few years.

Ian

Perhaps I should phone the UK distributor listed on the Amfix container.

Tom

 

[Anon Ymous]

Before saying anything else, I should say that I haven't used a print processor.

Anyway, I've been watching this thread and agree that it's probably insufficient fixation. It has happened to me in the past with exhausted fixer. The prints (Ilford MGIV RC) had that pink cast few minutes after the lights were on. What I find strange is that the stain isn't uniform. It's mostly at the center of the print and additionally there are some darker lines. Being darker, it probably means that these parts are even less fixed. So, could it be a malfunction?

For the record, refixing my prints didn't solve the problem.

 

[Ian Grant]

Perhaps I should phone the UK distributor listed on the Amfix container.

Tom

You run into a grey area between the chemical suppliers and processor manufacturers, where not every combination is tested or has recommendations.

In theory the equipment manufacturer should provide the information.

Ian