Paper developer lifetime?

rexp · Sep 26, 2005

I spent some time searching the archives without much luck (however I am always amazed at the info that a search dredges up!!).

How do you determine that your print developer is exhausted? I don't count prints, and have never thought I was at a point where the developer wasn't working but sometimes the liquid gets pretty dark. Typically I keep about 1 1/2 liters of dev for paper. When it looks bad, I usually pour off about 1L, and add 1L of fresh. I used to always dump all the old & mix up fresh, but after reading somewhere about keeping some "old brown developer" to add to fresh stock, I decided to try mixing some old with the new.

Funny, while I type this it is starting to sound like an old wive's tale...

eric · Sep 26, 2005

rexp said:
working but sometimes the liquid gets pretty dark. Typically I keep about 1 1/2 liters of dev for paper. When it looks bad, I usually pour off about 1L, and add 1L of fresh.

He he, that's what I do! I have a Nova vertical and when it "FEELS" like it is time for new developer (I use Ansco 130 so the life is very, very long), I pour some out, and pour some new one in. Very scientific huh?

BTW, I printed with Ansco 130 from a Nova after 6 months and it was still good.

Paul Howell · Sep 26, 2005

To some extent depends on the developer. I count prints and keep track of time in the tray. Some developers are know for long tray life. I used Dektol for years, but I swithched to Zonal Pro 4 or 5 months ago, I never kept Dektol overnight, but I found that I can store Zonal Pro in a filled bottle at least overnight.

jim appleyard · Sep 26, 2005

It all depends (there's a definate answer for you). Yes, Ansco 130 does last awhile and sometimes Dektol does too. It seems to depend on how it's stored ( keep as much air out of the bottle), how long it's been sitting in the tray, how many prints you've run thru it, etc.

I know of no actual "cut-off" point. I dump when it's dark and foul looking (altho the 130 still works when it's past this point) and/or when it simply stops working well; this is marked by slow dev times and lack of contrast.

I often get more than one night out of Dektol.

After you get used to a certain dev., you'll know when it's time to dump.

Bob F. · Sep 26, 2005

I use a Nova too and pretty much do the same as Eric (with Neutol WA and Ilford MG developer mainly). I just bought some glycin and will be making up my 1st batch of Ansco 130 in a few days. Seems a pity to throw the Neutol away though: it's only been in there a few weeks...

Seriously though, I always time the point when the print just starts to come up in the developer (I give it 5 x that time). When it gets to about 33% longer I would dump, but I have ever got to that point - I usually dump because the Neutol has gone so dark it makes me nervous (still works OK though...). Other than using a reflection densitometer, I can't think of a better way - I'm all ears for those who can!

Cheers, Bob.

P.S. Thanks for confirming Ansco 130's keeping power Eric - I had heard it was a good keeper, nice to have practical confirmation.

jvarsoke · Sep 26, 2005

I really only have experience with one paper developer: Ethol LPD. It comes in powder form, which you mix and then cut 1:1 for a work solution. After storing it for a day or so it turns brown no matter how many sheets you ran through it. But that hardly matters. LPD keeps developing like a champ well after it turns coffee-brown.

I've been using the same work mix for the last 6 months or so. Obviously, this is pretty low volumn printing. But I don't store the developer in anything special. It's in a datatainer jug in the cool shade, half filled with developer, half with air.

Developing takes about 1.5minutes for RC, and 3-4 minutes for Fiber.

When I first started, I used to throw the brown stuff out every time I'd start a new session. What a waste of money.

Ole · Sep 26, 2005

jim appleyard said:
...Yes, Ansco 130 does last awhile ...

I make new Ansco 130 when it's too dark to see if there's a print in the tray or not. The last one lasted 10 months, including being forgotten in the tray for 14 days...

I haven't found anything else that lasts anywhere near as long.

Ryuji · Sep 26, 2005

If you mix from scratch, DS-14 is a print developer that works with replenishment. If you use Nova, you can simply top up the developer fluid loss with replenisher and the system will keep running for many months. I use DS-14 in open trays for huge prints but the developer produces detectable speed loss only after a day or longer. The loss of Dmax will come after detectable speed loss.

Other print developers are not really designed for replenished use and you'll have to discard a large portion of the developer before adding a fresh solution. Still, you may notice fluctuation of print quality when the print is toned, especially in polysulfide toners.

Gerald Koch · Sep 26, 2005

rexp said:
How do you determine that your print developer is exhausted? I don't count prints, and have never thought I was at a point where the developer wasn't working but sometimes the liquid gets pretty dark. Typically I keep about 1 1/2 liters of dev for paper.

Trying to save used print developer is a false economy when you consider the price of the paper. Old, used developer is not going to produce the best print. How can you determine when print developer is exhausted -- it's dark brown and it smells really nasty. I discard print developer before it reaches this state staying under what Kodak publishes for the capacity of their various developers (usually 20 to 26 8x10 prints per liter). Other commercial developers usually state their capacity on the label.

Ronald Moravec · Sep 26, 2005

I will quote Fred Picker, " Never pour anything back into a bottle"

Use for one session and dump it. I have had paper developer starting to age that looked good, but the prints just did not look right, ie subtle deficiencies. It was stored overnight in a full bottle and less than 24 hrs old as diluted.

After dollars worth of paper trying to figure what was wrong, it was 50 cents woth of developer.

Fix does strange things too.

jim appleyard · Sep 26, 2005

Ole said:
I make new Ansco 130 when it's too dark to see if there's a print in the tray or not. The last one lasted 10 months, including being forgotten in the tray for 14 days...

I haven't found anything else that lasts anywhere near as long.

Agreed! However, a friend gave me some rather old glycin (about 1 lb. of it!!!) and it was about the color of brown sugar. I didn't dare use it to process film, but I did mix up quite a bit of 130 with it. It worked ok, gave the print a bit of a brown stain (this worked for some shots of old, deserted buildings; a cheap warm tone!), but it didn't have the legendary long life of 130 mixed with fresh glycin.

Just thought I'd pass this along.

pentaxuser · Sep 26, 2005

Bob F. said:
I use a Nova too and pretty much do the same as Eric (with Neutol WA and Ilford MG developer mainly). I just bought some glycin and will be making up my 1st batch of Ansco 130 in a few days. Seems a pity to throw the Neutol away though: it's only been in there a few weeks...

Seriously though, I always time the point when the print just starts to come up in the developer (I give it 5 x that time). When it gets to about 33% longer I would dump, but I have ever got to that point - I usually dump because the Neutol has gone so dark it makes me nervous (still works OK though...). Other than using a reflection densitometer, I can't think of a better way - I'm all ears for those who can!

Cheers, Bob.

P.S. Thanks for confirming Ansco 130's keeping power Eric - I had heard it was a good keeper, nice to have practical confirmation.

I too use a Nova tank and Nova developer. It can be replenished and when you are developing every few days then replenishment means it lasts forever as every few days the whole tank is changed.

Incidentally I'd be interested in anyone's views who has used Nova developer in terms of its quality and properties compared to other developers.

My problem comes when I do nothing for several weeks and then do only a few so the small replenishment needed means that some of the developer can be a couple of months old.

This problem is compounded by my difficulty in knowing when the prints are being affected. It's a bit like going slowly short sighted, you don't realise your eyesight/prints are not what they should be until they are way past their best.

Timing the first signs of the prints and discarding after a 33% increase sounds worthwhile. Was this arrived at by trial and error or is there a standard like checking on fixer life.

I suppose I could drain the Nova tank and put the developer in concertina bottles using Protectan gas. Again this sounds better in the longer term than covering the tank slot with the Nova tube but there may be no reason why draining into a bottle gives any extension to the developer's life. Common sense is not always backed by any science.

Pentaxuser

Daniel Lawton · Sep 26, 2005

When I was using Dektol I sometimes would reuse it the next night but not if it had sat for more than a day. I now use Agfa Neutol plus and have used working solution that was stored for 2 weeks with no ill effects to my eye.

fhovie · Sep 26, 2005

I judge my paper developer by the first 15 to 20 seconds of time - When it gets exhausted, the image appears late. If I don't have the beginnings of an image by 15 seconds on RC paper or 20 seconds on fiber, I will not get the blacks I want to see. I use PC-TEA (DS15?) I think - it is a Ryuji/Gainer soup posted in the formulas section that works very well and lasts a long time and is easy to homebrew. I replenish mine. I just make fresh and add it to the old - that way it never gets too black to see the print in it.

Ryuji · Sep 26, 2005

pentaxuser said:
My problem comes when I do nothing for several weeks and then do only a few so the small replenishment needed means that some of the developer can be a couple of months old.

I have no experience with Nova developer, but this is no problem with DS-14. One thing you need to get is a buret cleaner (something like glass cleaning brush but it is much thinner and has a long handle) brush. (see my web.) This removes the cause of the honeycomb pattern problem, but Nova expert did not admit the existence of such problem.

Ryuji · Sep 26, 2005

fhovie said:
I use PC-TEA (DS15?) I think - it is a Ryuji/Gainer soup posted in the formulas section that works very well and lasts a long time and is easy to homebrew. I replenish mine. I just make fresh and add it to the old - that way it never gets too black to see the print in it.

DS-15 is a lot slower developer than DS-14. DS-15 would require 2x to 3x development time compared to DS-14. For record, Gainer is not involved in either one of them. I didn't really run long term tests with DS-15 but DS-14 keeps for a long time.

gainer · Sep 26, 2005

Quite right, Ryuji. If I am using an ascorbate print developer, it will usually be a simple 1/4 tsp metol, 1/2 tbs ascorbic acid and 1 tbs sodium carbonate, mixed just before use in 1 1/2 l water. It doesn't take much longer than diluting a stock solution. I don't claim to be a master printer. Maybe this is why.

Bob F. · Sep 26, 2005

The 1/3rd extra time to appear is a conservative estimate. I know when I used trays more often and used cling-wrap laid on the chems to keep them overnight (or longer) in the tray there was no detectable (by eye) difference in two prints side by side with that change in appearance time, so I pick it as a best-guess safe time. You could probably go much longer, but it's best to play safe in the absence of a reflection densitometer to do a proper test (which I was hoping someone will have done)..

Using a developer such as Neutol, Ansco 130, Ilford MG, and no doubt many others, some listed by other here, you probably don't need to decant. I would be interested to see what actual difference the use of Protectan or other methods of excluding oxygen from the surface makes, given that there is oxygen dissolved in the liquid anyway...

Even when Neutol WA looks like cola syrup, it is still fine in the Nova for many weeks at a time (and it takes a week to start going noticeably off-colour in the first place). If the developer of your choice starts to go off after a week or so in the Nova then you may need to do something, but I'll bet it will probably last a couple of months or more. Try it and see. Worst case, you need to make up a new batch if you leave it too long between sessions. Not a major financial hit at about a quid per litre (about the same as petrol, and lasts much longer!). I only leave it for a month or two because I can't be ar**d to drain the Nova and mix up some more and I'm happy that there is no degradation of the print. Stop bath, and almost certainly fixer, will last that long. Easy to check in any event.

Cheers, Bob.

Nick Zentena · Sep 27, 2005

I never dump my Agfa developer. Reality is the paper sucks up more developer then what Agfa calls for replenisher. Every so often I top up the bottle that holds the developer. Ya it looks like root beer. But it works just like fresh. I guess I'm building up bromides or some other by-product but it's my aged developer and it works like I like

Calamity Jane · Sep 27, 2005

You mean you're supposed to DUMP THE DEVELOPER ??? !!! What a waste!

Truth be told, I am cheap as heck. I run a batch of Dektol until I get tired of waiting for the prints - it never seems to "go bad", it just gets SLOOOOOW. I often run a jug of Dektol, partly filled, well past 6 months with no problems.

juan · Sep 27, 2005

With Ansco 130, I mix two liters. I store it in two one-liter brown glass bottles. I use one liter as the developer, and at the end of each printing session, I top off its bottle with fresh stock from the second bottle. I continue to use the developer until I have used up the second bottle. That usually takes 9-10 months. I don't see any change in printing times.

As for the glycin, I'm keeping the dry chemical inside a plastic bottle, inside the dark plastic bag The Formulary shipped it in, inside a freezer bag, inside my freezer. My stock is about a year old and is still white. My new batch of 130 seems to work just as the batch made with fresh glycin did - so maybe freezing and keeping it dark is the secret to keeping glycin.
juan

pentaxuser · Sep 27, 2005

Bob F. said:
The 1/3rd extra time to appear is a conservative estimate. I know when I used trays more often and used cling-wrap laid on the chems to keep them overnight (or longer) in the tray there was no detectable (by eye) difference in two prints side by side with that change in appearance time, so I pick it as a best-guess safe time. You could probably go much longer, but it's best to play safe in the absence of a reflection densitometer to do a proper test (which I was hoping someone will have done)..

Using a developer such as Neutol, Ansco 130, Ilford MG, and no doubt many others, some listed by other here, you probably don't need to decant. I would be interested to see what actual difference the use of Protectan or other methods of excluding oxygen from the surface makes, given that there is oxygen dissolved in the liquid anyway...

Even when Neutol WA looks like cola syrup, it is still fine in the Nova for many weeks at a time (and it takes a week to start going noticeably off-colour in the first place). If the developer of your choice starts to go off after a week or so in the Nova then you may need to do something, but I'll bet it will probably last a couple of months or more. Try it and see. Worst case, you need to make up a new batch if you leave it too long between sessions. Not a major financial hit at about a quid per litre (about the same as petrol, and lasts much longer!). I only leave it for a month or two because I can't be ar**d to drain the Nova and mix up some more and I'm happy that there is no degradation of the print. Stop bath, and almost certainly fixer, will last that long. Easy to check in any event.

Cheers, Bob.

Bob In all honesty the Nova developer lasts a long time and at 24 degrees C is claimed to fully develop print in about 40secs. Certainly it looks fully developed to me and seems to do a reasonable job but never having used anything else I have nothing to compare it to. It's just that I hear so much about favourite developers that I wonder if I am missing something by sticking to Nova.

In a printing session I tend to replace only the developer used as opposed to decanting the recommended amount then refilling to the top which would use more developer.

Pentaxuser

Maine-iac · Sep 27, 2005

This thread is interesting in that it presents another case for divided developer for printing. I agree with Ryuji that DS-14 is a great developer--can't testify to its longevity because I just mixed up a batch yesterday and printed for the first time last night. It's all that he claims it is in terms of quality. Good D-Max, long scale, fast--less than a minute for Afga MCC Classic (FB). If it keeps well, all the better. And he's also right in saying that with today's papers, there's probably no visual advantage to the divided method. It doesn't give me better or worse quality prints than my divided formula which is essentially tweaked Ansco 125 (e.g. Dektol) with the carbonate separated out into a separate bath. The blacks on my prints are just as deep and rich as those developed in DS-14, and the time is just as fast--about 15-20 seconds in Bath A and about 30-35 seconds in Bath B (the more prints have been run through it, the longer the time; exhaustion of Bath B is signaled by weak or muddy blacks.)

But, Bath A never gets exhausted, just used up in volume, and it keeps for at least a year without loss of potency. (Not true, by the way, of a Phenidone/Ascorbic acid formula; the most I've been able to get out of a P/A formula is about six months.)

Bath B, since it's only washing soda, is simply discarded after each session. The amount of carbonate is relatively unimportant. I usually go with about 1/3 cup per two liters of water, but a weaker solution will simply take longer and not do as many prints.

Mixing B is simplicity itself; just fill the tray, dump in the carbonate and swish it a few times. While you're getting your negs ready, it will dissolve fully on its own within five minutes.

Bath A doesn't turn brown; over months, it will eventually turn a very light yellowish-brown with no loss of potency. Bath B will turn light brown during a session, and will turn dark brown if kept for future sessions. Given its cost of mere pennies per tray, however, there's no virtue in keeping it.

So, you pays your money and takes your choice. One less tray in your sink (my sink is 9 feet long, so it's not a problem) with a one-solution developer, but discoloration and keeping properties are issues.

I may try the Ansco 130 formula to compare the tone color with my tweaked 125. (The tweaking is just the use of Edwal Orthazite instead of bromide.)

Larry

Bob F. · Sep 27, 2005

I don't think its a case of losing anything. If you are happy with the results you get with the Nova developer then stick with it. The advantage of trying a few different developers is mainly the effect on print tone (and of course, some are cheaper than others ). If they last for many weeks in a bottle or in a processor then so much the better. Other techniques such as split developers are worth trying if you are so inclined. It's all fun!

For example, even with a neutral tone paper, Neutol WA will give a slightly warmer tone. With a warmtone paper it can make a dramatic difference. According to my reading, the Ansco 130 seems to give primarily a cold/neutral tone that some people have compared to that given by an Amidol based developer: giving an exceptionally good Dmax etc. That's why I've decided to give it a try rather than stick with the Ilford MG developer that I have used up to now for neutral tones. I'm not disappointed with the Ilford dev, just trying new things. Plus, it uses a developing agent that has not been used commercially for donkey's years (which I quite like the sound of in a Luddite Elitist kind of way)... Plus, the Ansco 130 is quite cheap to make up once you have had the Glycin shipped 3,500 miles from the US to the UK... which is nice ...

Cheers, Bob.

MurrayMinchin · Sep 27, 2005

Maine-iac said:
This thread is interesting in that it presents another case for divided developer for printing.

That sounds like a really interesting method. How do you repeat a print when printing at a later date?

I use a Metol - Glycin developer similar in action to Ansco 120 which lasts for up to 3 months as a working solution, and over a year as a stock solution. Keeping them in aluminized plastic wine bags (the ones with removable brown spigots) keeps them safe from light and oxygen.

At the 1:3 dilution I use at 72 degrees, it takes about 40 seconds for the negatives clear edge to appear which I multiply by a factor of 4.5 to give a 3 minute development time when the developer is fresh. The darks and midtones of the image don't really seperate until after about 1 1/2 minutes so they are pretty much useless for using as emergence areas...the negatives clear edge is more consistant anyway.

I'm 2 1/2 months into my latest batch of developer and it has hit its cruising speed with an emergence time of 48 seconds, making for a development time of 3 min 36 seconds. A print made today will match one made with fresh developer 2 1/2 months ago. When it gets to 50 seconds I mix up a new batch.

Keeping glycin fresh isn't an issue as I order some up from PF once or twice a year as needed.

Murray

Paper developer lifetime?

rexp

eric

Paul Howell

jim appleyard

Bob F.

jvarsoke

Ole

Moderator

Ryuji

Gerald Koch

Ronald Moravec

jim appleyard

pentaxuser

Daniel Lawton

fhovie

Ryuji

Ryuji

gainer

Bob F.

Nick Zentena

Calamity Jane

juan

pentaxuser

Maine-iac

Bob F.

MurrayMinchin

Membership Council

Paper developer lifetime?

Moderator

Membership Council

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency