The choice is limited by cost; I would prefer an X-Pan, but I would never use the 30mm or 90mm X-Pan lenses, so I can't justify the cost. Am I wrong? A new Horizont S3 is $300 and a used Noblex Pro Sport is $375. Anybody have experience with either one of these cameras? B+W street photography is the goal.
Panoramic Dilemma: Russian Horizont S3 or Noblex Pro Sport?
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I haven't used either of the cameras in question, so I have limited advice to offer. I do have a Widelux, which I absolutely love. It is built like a tank and has only three shutter speeds, so I'm not sure everybody else would like working with its limitations. Everybody has different styles. One thing that you said that puzzled me was that you would prefer the Xpan but would never use the 30 or 90 mm lenses. I gather that you are saying they are too wide and too tele for you? You don't exactly state your reasoning. Since it is not clear, I was just going to point out that the two cameras you are considering in its stead are significantly wide, wider than the Xpan with 30 mm. If it is a focal length issue, you might want to reconsider. Personally, I'd prefer my Widelux...but that's my problem...
I have the Horizon 202 which I purchased new in 1994.
I assume that the Horizont S3 you are talking about, is the latest incarnation of my camera.
Well, the Russian camera I have is a little rough around the edges, but produces beautiful negatives.
Very even exposure is a certainty, if the day is cloudy. If the day is bright, expect a bit of darkroom work from one end of the neg to the other.
I find the best part of the negative is the central 52-3mm, just leaving the extreme edges off the print.
For handheld work the grip is essential, otherwise your fingers will be in the frame.
If I could afford a Noblex, then I probably would. East German engineering is probably more consistent than Russian. I visited Jena in East Germany with my then new Horizon. Whilst at the Jena Optik Werke Museum, I was questioned by one of the staff about my Horizon.
Apparently he was on one of the engineering teams setting up the manufacture of the Noblex. Whilst he didn't sneer at my 202, I understood that it was a pretty ordinary mechanical contrivance, compared to what he had been working on.
Having seen in the flesh, the 120 version of the Noblex, I have a tendency to agree.
Anyway, back to your question. They are perfect for street work but you really have to shoot negative as quite often the difference of exposure from one end of the frame to the other isn't that great for transparency film.
I had a special neg carrier manufactured to hold the film in my 4x5 enlarger. This is pretty much a requirement for good enlarging, you may wish to factor this into your overall picture.
The Japanese X-Pan camera gives you a completely different kind of image. More or less like a wide angle rectilinear lens on a 35mm camera. I prefer the real swinging lens camera as the view can be really effective/different, especially if the horizon, isn't in the middle of the frame. Some of the pictures on my Horizon 202 I've taken, are really out of the ordinary!
Mick.
I assume that the Horizont S3 you are talking about, is the latest incarnation of my camera.
Well, the Russian camera I have is a little rough around the edges, but produces beautiful negatives.
Very even exposure is a certainty, if the day is cloudy. If the day is bright, expect a bit of darkroom work from one end of the neg to the other.
I find the best part of the negative is the central 52-3mm, just leaving the extreme edges off the print.
For handheld work the grip is essential, otherwise your fingers will be in the frame.
If I could afford a Noblex, then I probably would. East German engineering is probably more consistent than Russian. I visited Jena in East Germany with my then new Horizon. Whilst at the Jena Optik Werke Museum, I was questioned by one of the staff about my Horizon.
Apparently he was on one of the engineering teams setting up the manufacture of the Noblex. Whilst he didn't sneer at my 202, I understood that it was a pretty ordinary mechanical contrivance, compared to what he had been working on.
Having seen in the flesh, the 120 version of the Noblex, I have a tendency to agree.
Anyway, back to your question. They are perfect for street work but you really have to shoot negative as quite often the difference of exposure from one end of the frame to the other isn't that great for transparency film.
I had a special neg carrier manufactured to hold the film in my 4x5 enlarger. This is pretty much a requirement for good enlarging, you may wish to factor this into your overall picture.
The Japanese X-Pan camera gives you a completely different kind of image. More or less like a wide angle rectilinear lens on a 35mm camera. I prefer the real swinging lens camera as the view can be really effective/different, especially if the horizon, isn't in the middle of the frame. Some of the pictures on my Horizon 202 I've taken, are really out of the ordinary!
Mick.
Karl K said:
I have used two different Horizonts over the years, the first one the old steel "Soviet tank" model and the second the more modern, post-Communist plastic/metal one. Both of them had very good optics and delivered beautiful films. I especially like the little green/yellow filter that snaps in for black and white work.
As said above, the handgrip is a must. It's easy to get your knuckles in the photos, as well as your feet, so be careful about that -- and always use the level, which is visible in the viewfinder. I usually used it on a tripod, but it works fine for handheld as well as long as you go with the higher shutter speeds.
For the money, you simply cannot beat it. The optics are excellent and, while "rough around the edges," will deliver good images as long as you handle it gently and take good care of it. I had a problem with the newer one of the film winding lever snapping off, so be gentle with that.
Good luck and Happy Panoramas!
I was interested to read this thread because I have always wanted a swing lens type panoramic camera but they always seemed pretty expensive. Then I saw the Horizon 202, which are pretty cheap, but I was unsure about the quality. It sounds like they are alright for the price? There don't seem to be many around in Australia for sale so I guess you have to order them from O.S.
Are the Wideluxe cameras still made? Occasionally they come up for sale second hand, but it seems like there's not many around, & I have heard they can have a few problems.
Are the Wideluxe cameras still made? Occasionally they come up for sale second hand, but it seems like there's not many around, & I have heard they can have a few problems.
Samuel, there is a 202 for sale in a camera shop in Bentleigh. Reasonable nick and worth a look at.
I checked it out 3 weeks ago for someone else but he bought a widelux instead.
Mick.
I checked it out 3 weeks ago for someone else but he bought a widelux instead.
Mick.
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If I were you I'd go for the Noblex. I've handled the Horizon 202 and was not impressed. When I handled the Noblex, I was sold. I still have it after some 5 years.
Beware, though, that IMO panoramics are a temporary fad. I reckon you'll get bored with it pretty quickly. Consider renting one before buying.
RML
Shards of Photography
Beware, though, that IMO panoramics are a temporary fad. I reckon you'll get bored with it pretty quickly. Consider renting one before buying.
RML
Shards of Photography
Samuel B said:
Horizon/Horizont cameras are fairly common on eBay, often from Eastern European sellers. There's also Rugift, which is a Russian-based camera seller. I've dealt with them in the past and have no complaints about their service, aside from the understandable postal delays. Other than this, I'm unaffiliated with them.
Be aware that Russian quality control leaves something to be desired. It's entirely possible that even a new camera will be defective, so be sure the seller will accept returns. (Rugift will; I've had to return items to them before, and they've always shipped out the replacement without hassles or extra charges.) Once you've got a working camera, it'll probably continue to work.
Troy Hamon said:
Hi, Troy. I just bought a Widelux from a retiree and am wondering if you've successfully acquired sharp negs handholding it, especially using the 250th/second shutter speed. Thanks.
Terry
I have a Horizon 202. Bought on Ebay for (IIRC) $160. Works fine, but you have to be careful winding and loading. Also, I wouldn't go hiking with the thing hanging around my neck on a strap. 
Having said all that, it is what it is. I would love the Xpan, or a 120 Widelux, but the Horizon was $160!
It's a novelty for me. A toy. Still, I'm currently shooting for a group show, and I wouldn't be surprised if a neg from the Horizon makes it into the show.
Cheers, and good luck.
David
Having said all that, it is what it is. I would love the Xpan, or a 120 Widelux, but the Horizon was $160!
It's a novelty for me. A toy. Still, I'm currently shooting for a group show, and I wouldn't be surprised if a neg from the Horizon makes it into the show.
Cheers, and good luck.
David
If you are considering panoramaics for serious work then you should consider the ragne of 120-220 options as opposed to or in addition to 35mm. They are all considerably more expensive if this is a consideration but deliver far superior results. I rented a number some years ago to try them out and see whta best suited my needs. Ended up with a Noblex 150F which has served me faithfully for a number of years. Solid build, excellent film flatness, great optics.
You really should see if you can rent or borrow several before you decide. One further consideration, with the 120's you are way way way better off using a tripod and that holds true to only a slightly lesser extent with the 35 swing lens options. This is true both because of the long time needed for full lens rotation and to insure a level horizon.
You really should see if you can rent or borrow several before you decide. One further consideration, with the 120's you are way way way better off using a tripod and that holds true to only a slightly lesser extent with the 35 swing lens options. This is true both because of the long time needed for full lens rotation and to insure a level horizon.
tbm,
I have some pretty sharp negs from my widelux, and I have in many cases handheld the images. But I mostly shoot medium format and the prints are certainly a bit softer than with my RB. I agree in some ways with rml who says that he thinks panoramics are a temporary fad. I disagree in that they have been around for many years and have been seriously used for many years with spectacular results. But I agree in that it is a very different way of seeing and most people probably don't stick with it long enough to really find their own vision with it. I had the camera for a few years before I figured out how to make images I liked.
Most of my panoramic images haven't been scanned and posted anywhere yet, but I do have one that is online Dead Link Removed. It makes a very nice print at 10" length, but is somewhat soft printed at 20" length. If you are aiming at large prints, a medium format or large format panoramic solution would be better. If you expect to print more at the smaller sizes, it is a great way to go.
The image in question was handheld at 1/15. I shot a whole roll of that one image to make sure one of them would come out. I also have shot at 1/125 and 1/250 handheld and have little trouble. At the angle of view this camera provides, 1/125 is very fast and quite sufficient for handholding. For 1/125 and 1/250 it is just a question of lens resolving power and subject distance (and proper exposure), but shouldn't be a real problem in terms of camera shake.
I have found that life is easier with a tripod, but the camera is easy enough to use that sometimes you can get nice images handheld even at the slow shutter speed. I have also found that when I find an image that works with the panoramic format, it works better than similar images taken with standard dimensions.
At the cost of these specialty cameras I can definitely see Ted and rml's point about renting before buying. But I suspect that if I hadn't picked up my widelux for $200 when the opportunity arose, I would never have taken enough pictures to decide I liked it. It was just a novelty for the first four years I owned it.
For Samuel B, I have heard about problems with the wideluxes, but haven't really read up to see whether I am familiar with any. I've worried about mine a few times, like the two times blowing pumice got stuck in the camera during an exposure and made the lens stop swinging and I thought I was destroying the gears trying to make it work again in the field. But both times it kept on ticking after...at least so far. I also have noticed that sometimes the shutter speed dial doesn't easily move all the way into a new shutter speed, and the camera doesn't like to make an exposure with the dial not quite resting on one of the shutter speeds. And last, I've noticed that the camera occasionally will have irregular swings when grit of smaller dimensions gets in the gears...which can make for surprise negatives.
As I said, I like it partly because I'm used to its idiosyncrasies. I would never have become so interested in it if I hadn't bought it and used it when the opportunity offered itself. I also would never have bought it for the price that they usually go for.
I think David's summary of the price difference is an important consideration if you are just checking out the format but want to give yourself more time to try than just renting would provide. If I were checking out the format and didn't get a great deal on one of the expensive options, I would probabaly also err on the side of a cheap Horizon to see whether the format works for me, and get a more robust camera later if it grows on me. And for all I know they might be better than a widelux. I happen to fall into the group that tends not to spend much time worrying about the possible advantages of the cameras I don't own, I'd much rather make use of the ones I do have...and I have a widelux...which I really love...
Good luck and happy panoramics!
I have some pretty sharp negs from my widelux, and I have in many cases handheld the images. But I mostly shoot medium format and the prints are certainly a bit softer than with my RB. I agree in some ways with rml who says that he thinks panoramics are a temporary fad. I disagree in that they have been around for many years and have been seriously used for many years with spectacular results. But I agree in that it is a very different way of seeing and most people probably don't stick with it long enough to really find their own vision with it. I had the camera for a few years before I figured out how to make images I liked.
Most of my panoramic images haven't been scanned and posted anywhere yet, but I do have one that is online Dead Link Removed. It makes a very nice print at 10" length, but is somewhat soft printed at 20" length. If you are aiming at large prints, a medium format or large format panoramic solution would be better. If you expect to print more at the smaller sizes, it is a great way to go.
The image in question was handheld at 1/15. I shot a whole roll of that one image to make sure one of them would come out. I also have shot at 1/125 and 1/250 handheld and have little trouble. At the angle of view this camera provides, 1/125 is very fast and quite sufficient for handholding. For 1/125 and 1/250 it is just a question of lens resolving power and subject distance (and proper exposure), but shouldn't be a real problem in terms of camera shake.
I have found that life is easier with a tripod, but the camera is easy enough to use that sometimes you can get nice images handheld even at the slow shutter speed. I have also found that when I find an image that works with the panoramic format, it works better than similar images taken with standard dimensions.
At the cost of these specialty cameras I can definitely see Ted and rml's point about renting before buying. But I suspect that if I hadn't picked up my widelux for $200 when the opportunity arose, I would never have taken enough pictures to decide I liked it. It was just a novelty for the first four years I owned it.
For Samuel B, I have heard about problems with the wideluxes, but haven't really read up to see whether I am familiar with any. I've worried about mine a few times, like the two times blowing pumice got stuck in the camera during an exposure and made the lens stop swinging and I thought I was destroying the gears trying to make it work again in the field. But both times it kept on ticking after...at least so far. I also have noticed that sometimes the shutter speed dial doesn't easily move all the way into a new shutter speed, and the camera doesn't like to make an exposure with the dial not quite resting on one of the shutter speeds. And last, I've noticed that the camera occasionally will have irregular swings when grit of smaller dimensions gets in the gears...which can make for surprise negatives.
As I said, I like it partly because I'm used to its idiosyncrasies. I would never have become so interested in it if I hadn't bought it and used it when the opportunity offered itself. I also would never have bought it for the price that they usually go for.
I think David's summary of the price difference is an important consideration if you are just checking out the format but want to give yourself more time to try than just renting would provide. If I were checking out the format and didn't get a great deal on one of the expensive options, I would probabaly also err on the side of a cheap Horizon to see whether the format works for me, and get a more robust camera later if it grows on me. And for all I know they might be better than a widelux. I happen to fall into the group that tends not to spend much time worrying about the possible advantages of the cameras I don't own, I'd much rather make use of the ones I do have...and I have a widelux...which I really love...
Good luck and happy panoramics!
Mick Fagan said:
Which camera store is that? I might go and have a look at it.
I really just want something cheap that works, to experiment with and see if I like them.
I like the distorted perspective that you get with swing lens cameras. Someone gave me a Ken Duncan book, I think it was his first book and all the photos for this book were all taken on 35mm Widelux cameras. I quite like some of these photos. I think they are more intersesting than the flat panoramas that you get from something like an X-pan. (and you can just crop a medium format neg for the same effect)
Samuel, the store is the Photographic Warehouse, shop 5 Nicholson St Bentleigh 03 9557 6666.
It's really a genuine camera shop, not a single piece of digital equipment. Obviously, almost everything, is second hand!
It's right opposite the Bentleigh railway station.
Worth a trawl, just to check out some of the consignment stuff they have.
They usually take out a ful page ad in the Photographic Trader.
Mick.
It's really a genuine camera shop, not a single piece of digital equipment. Obviously, almost everything, is second hand!
It's right opposite the Bentleigh railway station.
Worth a trawl, just to check out some of the consignment stuff they have.
They usually take out a ful page ad in the Photographic Trader.
Mick.
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