Pancro 400 washing

removedacct3 · Jan 7, 2018

Hi!

Has anybody any experience regarding the washing procedure of Pancro 400? I've included links to the English as well as the French version of Bergger's datasheet. The English version is not very clear about it, but what I can make from the French version is 10 inversions in fresh water with an interval of 10 minutes between each successive inversion. Resulting in a total washing time of 100 minutes. I've contacted Bergger by using their online contact form and asked them the very same question. Unfortunately they haven't got back to me yet. Hence my question for any first hand experience. Like to hear from you.

All the best,
Marcel

http://bergger.com/media/wysiwyg/Fiches_techniques/Pancro400_en.pdf
http://bergger.com/media/wysiwyg/Fiches_techniques/Pancro400_fr.pdf

Peter Schrager · Jan 7, 2018

Follow Ilford instructions for washing film
It's just film no special washing needed

removedacct1 · Jan 7, 2018

What Peter said: no special handling needed - wash like any other film.

pentaxuser · Jan 7, 2018

Well it certainly doesn't look like a translation issue but I find it difficult to believe that the film needs what appear to be a total immersion of 100 minutes in water to be properly washed, especially as this is post a HCA bath as well.

In contrast the Ilford method of 5, 10 and 20 inversions and dumps respectively takes maybe 3-4 mins.

pentaxuser

locutus · Jan 7, 2018

I washed for 10 minutes (using fill, invert 10 times, dump, refill) and my Pancro comes out fine.

removedacct3 · Jan 7, 2018

pentaxuser said:
Well it certainly doesn't look like a translation issue but I find it difficult to believe that the film needs what appear to be a total immersion of 100 minutes in water to be properly washed, especially as this is post a HCA bath as well.

One of the unique features of this film is that the anti-halation layer is between the film base and the light sensitive layers. From what I understand, Bergger recommends presoaking the film and the somewhat peculiar washing regime because of this. But I do find 100 minutes very inconvenient. Hence my question for an alternative method.

removedacct1 · Jan 7, 2018

I've read the documentation also, and what the English version says is: "10 washes in clear water, every ten minutes will allow to eliminate all chemical
residue remaining in the gelatin."

I cannot imagine actually doing this in practice. I hope Bergger gets back to you about this matter - I'd really like to hear what they have to say. I've washed my Pancro400 films as I do with any other films.

removedacct3 · Jan 7, 2018

paulbarden said:
I've read the documentation also, and what the English version says is: "10 washes in clear water, every ten minutes will allow to eliminate all chemical
residue remaining in the gelatin."

Yes, that is what they are saying. So I checked the French version and instead of 'washes' they write 'inversions'. Not only confusing, but a total washing time of 100 minutes seems so outrageous.

twelvetone12 · Jan 7, 2018

They write "Une séquence de 10 immersions", a sequence of ten immersions, which is even more confusing! I'm about to develop my first roll, I think I will just do an extended wash. 100 minutes is just crazy.

pentaxuser · Jan 7, 2018

What makes things worse is that you'd imagine Bergger must be aware of the shock and consternation its 100 minute washing regime must be causing users when it is much longer than any other film washing regime I have even heard of and yet in spite of this it seems slow to answer the question.

If 100 minutes is correct and anything less than this risks future problems then it would have to be a near miracle film compared to any other manufacturer to make me want to use it

It astounds me how any manufacturer cannot anticipate questions and provide answers when it must know it has issued instructions that will cause "shock and awe" to use a famous President's term at the beginning of the Iraq war.

pentaxuser

Doc W · Jan 7, 2018

The only difference that I have noticed with Panchro (and this is just the sheet film) is that it appears to be thicker than the other sheet films I use. I don't know if this is a factor. Berrger also recommends a much longer fixing time than I use with other film.

Kawaiithulhu · Jan 9, 2018

Feels like it's almost like going back to the good old days of thick emulsions...?

Ballinderry-Michael · May 15, 2019

Both languages specify "immersions", which I take to mean 10 changes of 10 minutes each. Agreed, that does seem over the top (I've just finished processing a roll "by the book": took most of the afternoon); but the film is a bit unusual in some respects.

Whatever, I do love the results: using water to stop development certainly yields extra shadow detail.

Tim V · May 16, 2019

Pancro does require a lengthy pre-soak, extended development times (compared to equivalent films) and certainly longer fixing times. I wash sheet film in a Jobo drum-four fill and dumps with constant agitation for 2 mins each fill, then continue to wash in archival washer, although I do this for all films I use.

Bergger did tell me that the anti-halation layer of this film is very unique so does require extra care, but never mentioned anything like crazy wash lengths.

pentaxuser · May 16, 2019

Ballinderry-Michael said:
Both languages specify "immersions", which I take to mean 10 changes of 10 minutes each. Agreed, that does seem over the top (I've just finished processing a roll "by the book": took most of the afternoon); but the film is a bit unusual in some respects.

Whatever, I do love the results: using water to stop development certainly yields extra shadow detail.

As I said earlier it has to be a superb film to be worth a whole afternoon's time to process. I have yet to find a film that would meet this definition of "superb" I'd wash as others here have suggested.

Still amazes me that Bergger still hasn't clarified its wash process for Panchro 400

pentaxuser.

Tom Kershaw · May 16, 2019

I washed the single roll of '120' format Pancro 400 I've used so far, in my usual way for black & white film. A few minutes in the Jobo, followed by a short running water wash, with the film appearing to be in good condition and free of anti-halation dyes etc.

removedacct3 · May 16, 2019

pentaxuser said:
... Still amazes me that Bergger still hasn't clarified its wash process for Panchro 400 ...

I mailed them twice. Very politely formulated. Never received a response, let alone an answer. One would think that a small company with a relative new product would like to get a loyal customer base, but for some reason or the other they seem to have different priorities.

pentaxuser · May 16, 2019

MrclSchprs said:
I mailed them twice. Very politely formulated. Never received a response, let alone an answer. One would think that a small company with a relative new product would like to get a loyal customer base, but for some reason or the other they seem to have different priorities.

Different priorities sounds about right. With no answer to a perfectly sensible question about why the washing needs 100 minutes in the 16 months since the thread was started I have drawn similar conclusions as you have and such lack of response usually means that customers are not one of its priorities.

pentaxuser

37th Exposure · May 16, 2019

From my reading of the data sheet I get the idea they mean 10 changes of water in 10 minutes. Sounds about right since they suggest a non hardening fixer. I’ve seen this suggested in place of the Ilford method. But I could be wrong.

Tim V · May 17, 2019

Pancro is a lovely film with good ‘character’. I don’t think the wash needs to be anything too special. Maybe a couple of extra rinse steps, that’d be it.

pentaxuser · May 17, 2019

37th Exposure said:
From my reading of the data sheet I get the idea they mean 10 changes of water in 10 minutes. Sounds about right since they suggest a non hardening fixer. I’ve seen this suggested in place of the Ilford method. But I could be wrong.

I think you are right. From another post it was the french phrase was a sequence of 10 immersions. It then presumably mentions in 10 minutes so for an immersion read " immersion in fresh water" so 10 fills and dumps in 10 minutes which might be longer than Ilford's 3 dumps and fills consisting of 5,10 and 20 inversions but sounds right now

Pity Bergger didn't take the time to make it clearer

pentaxuser

Ballinderry-Michael · May 17, 2019

37th Exposure said:
From my reading of the data sheet I get the idea they mean 10 changes of water in 10 minutes. Sounds about right since they suggest a non hardening fixer. I’ve seen this suggested in place of the Ilford method. But I could be wrong.

No: in the English version they say "every 10 minutes" and in the French "10 immersions dans l'eau Claire, espacées de 10 minutes" (my emphasis), both of which clearly mean a long wash.

pentaxuser · May 17, 2019

Ballinderry-Michael said:
No: in the English version they say "every 10 minutes" and in the French "10 immersions dans l'eau Claire, espacées de 10 minutes" (my emphasis), both of which clearly mean a long wash.

I wonder what it is about the emulsion that requires about 10 times as long to wash( 100 mins v 10 mins or even a lot less if it is an Ilford emulsionl)? Whatever it is, it has to be unique to Bergger Panchro 400 unless others can name any other films which need anything like 100 minutes of washing.,

Just a pity that the OP never got a reply from Bergger

pentaxuser

Adrian Bacon · May 25, 2019

MrclSchprs said:
Hi!

Has anybody any experience regarding the washing procedure of Pancro 400? I've included links to the English as well as the French version of Bergger's datasheet. The English version is not very clear about it, but what I can make from the French version is 10 inversions in fresh water with an interval of 10 minutes between each successive inversion. Resulting in a total washing time of 100 minutes. I've contacted Bergger by using their online contact form and asked them the very same question. Unfortunately they haven't got back to me yet. Hence my question for any first hand experience. Like to hear from you.

All the best,
Marcel

http://bergger.com/media/wysiwyg/Fiches_techniques/Pancro400_en.pdf
http://bergger.com/media/wysiwyg/Fiches_techniques/Pancro400_fr.pdf

I do 3 quick fill and dumps (washes out all the chemistry off all the surfaces inside the tank and off the surface of the film), then wash it in an archival washer the same as I do for all bw films. Washing is a diffusion process. As long as your wash water has less chemistry in it than the emulsion, the chemistry will flow out of the emulsion and into the wash water. This is why archival washers have a slow and steady stream of clean water into the washer.

If I used rapid fix, I wash in the archival washer for 15 minutes with a flow rate of ~1L per minute. If I used Kodak Fixer, I wash the film in the archival washer for 30 minutes with a flow rate of ~1L per minute.

Pancro 400 washing

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