Palladium toner and Kallitypes

UKJohn · Jun 2, 2014

I have recently been revisiting the kallitype process and in general all was going well until I noticed that the platinum toner I was using (this was made up several years ago) wasn't giving the dark hues I was expecting but just giving a mucky brown plus taking a considerable amount of time for any colour change to occur (normally 3 - 4 minutes but now 15 - 20 minutes). From this I made the assumption that the toner was exhausted.

Using a 25ml bottle of B&S palladium (I think it is a 15% solution but purchased several years ago) I made up a toner using Sandy King's recipe from unblinkingeye (as I had done for the platinum) but on using it I found that it turned the paper (arches platine) yellow and even after washing a yellow staining remained over the entire paper.

So, I was wondering has any one else experienced this or is it something I'm doing wrong?

Currently I have reverted to using Tetenal gold toner but finding this is bleaching back the highlights quite severely.

If any one has any theories or suggestions that would be great.

Thank you

John

Jim Noel · Jun 2, 2014

It is my common practice to use Pt orPd toners made as suggested by Sandy. I have not experienced the problem you discuss. I have no suggestions for you, but perhaps Sandy wil see this and respond.

Loris Medici · Jun 2, 2014

Can you please tell us about your workflow? Are you following Sandy's workflow exactly? Does the yellowing affect the paper completely or just only the coated parts? If the latter you maybe have some clearing problems and the toner is actually acting upon the uncleared silver nitrate/iron...

UKJohn · Jun 2, 2014

Hi Loris,

Thanks for your reply.

I'm following the same process as Sandy King suggests, but in the past have experienced clearing problems so have adjusted the clearing baths slightly, bath #1 is 30g citric acid to 1000ml filtered water and bath #2 is 20g citric acid, 20g EDTA and 20g sodium sulphite (for 10 minutes) - which appears to have solved the problem.

I have checked by masking the coated areas outside the negative with ruby lith and once processed holding up to a strong light and checking for any visible stain but can't see any even several days later once the print has dried (well I'm hoping I've solved the problem).

The stain is all over the paper including areas that haven't been coated, you can see it gradually building after about 3 or 4 minutes into toning.

Thanks

John

Loris Medici · Jun 2, 2014

If untoned prints clear well and results are normal / as excepted, this indicates that something's wrong with your toner. I'm sure the pd solutions are stable for a very long time... How about the water and/or citric acid in your toner? Also, is that the same paper (& batch) that worked OK with pt before?

OTOH, I have also tried the pd toner before (but with Vandykes), it didn't stain my papers but I haven't liked the results and converted to gold-thiourea toning. I personally think gold-thiourea toner is what works best with iron-silver prints. Gold is able to give you much wider color choices too...

Regards,
Loris.

UKJohn · Jun 2, 2014

I have had the palladium sitting around for a good few years but assumed it would still be good. The water is filtered and citric acid comes straight out of a 2.5kg tub - so again I assume all is ok. Same batch of paper as used previously. The pt toner always worked well, so was surprised the pd had this effect.

I have tried off the shelf gold toner from Tetenal but noticed bleaching of the print - I will take a look at the gold-thiourea toner, the Sandy king gold toner recipe has interested me but I'm not sure where to get the gold chloride here in the UK.

Thanks for your comments they are much appreciated.

Cheers

John

bernard_L · Jun 2, 2014

I'm not sure where to get the gold chloride here in the UK

http://www.mamut-photo.com/eshop/en/chemicals/88-gold-chloride-1g.html
http://disactis.com/store/fr/40-chlorure-d-or

davido · Apr 9, 2016

This is an older thread, but I am wondering if you ever resolved this problem John?

I am having the same issue with a yellow stain on both sides of the paper. In the past I have used gold toner, but wanted to try to get a browner hue with palladium for a new series I am working on.
I have tried making new toner, washing with distilled water between clearing baths (both citric acid and filtered water) and toning. I also made fresh developer (sodium citrate)
I will try using some EDTA Disodium next - perhaps not all of the silver/iron is clearing from the paper before it hits the toner?

David

UKJohn · Apr 15, 2016

Hi David I never really resolved the issues with the toners and in the end opted to use a bottle of gold toner I had sitting on the shelf. As much as I hate to say it I haven't done any kalitypes for a good while mainly because even though I believe that I am pretty meticulous in my approach there are still reoccurring problems. I do intend having another go but will start from scratch with fresh chemistry and paper. Sorry for being of no help but good luck and I would be keen to know how you get on.

Jim Noel · Apr 15, 2016

Could it be your paper? I recently used a newer batch of a favored paper,and nothing about it was like the previous case. It has now been relegate to the "Do Not Use" drawer.
If it is not your paper,I still strongly suspect your clearing baths. Some papers work well with one clearing chemical, and not with others. Some work well with 3 different baths of 3 different chemicals, and some don't. It does seem necessary to insure the paper is acidic in order to clear. My favorite scheme for most papers is to add a small amount of citric acid to the first rinse after development, followed by 3 baths of EDTA + sodium sulfite. Approximately 75-80% of the stain goes away in the first rinse.

davido · Apr 15, 2016

Jim Noel said:
Could it be your paper? I recently used a newer batch of a favored paper,and nothing about it was like the previous case. It has now been relegate to the "Do Not Use" drawer.
If it is not your paper,I still strongly suspect your clearing baths. Some papers work well with one clearing chemical, and not with others. Some work well with 3 different baths of 3 different chemicals, and some don't. It does seem necessary to insure the paper is acidic in order to clear. My favorite scheme for most papers is to add a small amount of citric acid to the first rinse after development, followed by 3 baths of EDTA + sodium sulfite. Approximately 75-80% of the stain goes away in the first rinse.

Jim,
The problem only shows itself when I tone (which I pretty much always do) but if I process a print without toning it comes out fine? I have tried three different types of paper (Cot320, Platine & Buxton) and all stain the entire sheet (front & back)
I have tried using EDTA Disodium to clear for an additional 4 minutes and also tried using filtered water to wash before I tone.
I had been toning with Gold Thiourea Toner and it was working fine, but wanted to get more of a brown tone for a particular image.
From what I have read, it's either silver nitrate which is still in the paper reacting with the palladium salts or it's something in the tap water?
I am starting to think that maybe it's the toner itself? The palladium solution is from B&S but it is getting a little old (2006). The toner itself is fresh and made with just citric acid.
I am going to try only washing with filtered water and see what happens.

David

Jim Noel · Apr 16, 2016

I don't think It is the age of your palladium solution. I buy in large quantities so some of mine is from 1999. Is your first rinse acidified, or plain water? When i firstbegan acidifying it my staining problems disappeared.

davido · Apr 16, 2016

Yes, the age really shouldn't be an issue, I am just running out of options.
I do acidify my clearing baths, I use a 3% citric acid. The water is filtered not distilled. It's a decent charcoal filter system I think, though I will try distilled.
Thanks for your help Jim.
David

Tom Taylor · Apr 17, 2016

davido said:
Jim,
The problem only shows itself when I tone (which I pretty much always do) but if I process a print without toning it comes out fine? I have tried three different types of paper (Cot320, Platine & Buxton) and all stain the entire sheet (front & back)
I have tried using EDTA Disodium to clear for an additional 4 minutes and also tried using filtered water to wash before I tone.
I had been toning with Gold Thiourea Toner and it was working fine, but wanted to get more of a brown tone for a particular image.
From what I have read, it's either silver nitrate which is still in the paper reacting with the palladium salts or it's something in the tap water?
I am starting to think that maybe it's the toner itself? The palladium solution is from B&S but it is getting a little old (2006).
David

Unless its in the process ( Is the developer exhausted? Are you developing for 8-10 minutes or longer? Is the first wash in lightly acidic distilled water? Are you washing the print for 4-5 minutes after toning and before fixing?) it sounds like the toner to me. FWIW I mix palladium toner 100mL at a time and use it one shot 50mL per 8/10 print in a flat bottom tray: 0.5gm sodium acetate + 0.5 gms citric acid + 8 drops of palladium solution to 100mL of distilled water.

Thomas

davido · Apr 17, 2016

I am only getting staining when I use toner, and it's the entire sheet of paper.
Your palladium toner recipe, Thomas, is the same as the first one I tried except much more dilute. That one calls for 2g of citric acid + 2g sodium acetate + 30 drops of palladium chloride per 400 ml distilled water.
How long do you tone for?
I also use one shot in a glass flat bottom tray.

David

Tom Taylor · Apr 17, 2016

David,

Divide your formula above by 4 and you get mine. I just got finished reprinting a kallitype that I printed yesterday and its out of the final wash and hanging to dry. I first printed it yesterday at 8 minutes in the open shade and 1.5 minutes in the sun. Way to dark. So I reprinted at 6.5 minutes in the shade and 45 seconds in the sun. Still too dark so this morning I tried 4.5 minutes in the shade and 43 seconds in the sun with a little dodging on one of the corners where the negative was on the thin side. This one is looking much better at this point. The spring sun is putting out a lot of UV.

Toned todays for 9.5 minutes, yesterdays for 15 minutes.

Thomas

davido · Apr 17, 2016

Thomas,
Interesting, I have never heard of split printing between shade and sun! Does shade printing offer less contrast? Or is there some other reason for doing this?
I have been using a Nuarc platemaker for the last number of years,
That makes sense regarding your toning times, as I tone for 4 minutes. I am still surprised that such a small amount of palladium chloride will go that far!

David

Tom Taylor · Apr 18, 2016

Funny thing happened yesterday and this first time that I have noticed this: Around noon yesterday I hung the print to dry in the printdryer. About a hour and a half later I snuck a peek. It was still wet and the bricks of the old Civil War era fort(Fort Point) were a reddish color and not very agreeable at all. I left and returned at 7 and the print was dry and the color of the bricks has changed to a normal color. The image was sharper in that where the individual bricks joined was sharply delineated throughout and the two darker spots had eavened out. So 4.5 minutes in the shade & 45 seconds in the sun was the correct exposure. But the sky was not a paper white sky as in the earlier print but was, instead, a greyish white. But it was an overcast and rainy day when I shot the negative so I thought it was depicting the sky how it actually was when I took the image. So I propped it up on top of the microwave in the kitchen next to the earlier print as I usually do to see if it would be a keeper. At midnight I checked on it and the sky had changed to a paper white sky just like the earlier print! No other change was a pparent. I wonder if that kind of change is normal with kallitype? I haven't printed that many but never noticed a change like that.

Thomas

henrit · Mar 3, 2019

davido said:
I am only getting staining when I use toner, and it's the entire sheet of paper.
Your palladium toner recipe, Thomas, is the same as the first one I tried except much more dilute. That one calls for 2g of citric acid + 2g sodium acetate + 30 drops of palladium chloride per 400 ml distilled water.
How long do you tone for?
I also use one shot in a glass flat bottom tray.

David

Please, David, would you mind telling the percent solution of palladium chloride?

henrit · Mar 3, 2019

davido said:
I am only getting staining when I use toner, and it's the entire sheet of paper.
Your palladium toner recipe, Thomas, is the same as the first one I tried except much more dilute. That one calls for 2g of citric acid + 2g sodium acetate + 30 drops of palladium chloride per 400 ml distilled water.
How long do you tone for?
I also use one shot in a glass flat bottom tray.

David

Please, David, would you mind telling the percent solution of palladium chloride?

Palladium toner and Kallitypes

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