Palladium choices for toner?

[MurrayMinchin]

Hi there,

Sandy King's palladium toner formula, here: https://www.alternativephotography.com/the-kallitype-process/ says to use a 20% solution of Sodium Chloropalladite (II).

I'll be using this for Argyrotypes and have found the Silver Oxide needed for that process at Artcraft Chemicals. They sell two forms of Palladium;

1) Sodium Tetrachloropalladate (II) and,

2) Palladium (II) Chloride.

Can either of these be used as a direct replacement in King's formula...or...can one be used with an adjustment to the percentage of dilution?

Artcraftchemicals

Artcraftchemicals

artcraftchemicals.com

 

[fgorga]

Murry,

You'll want to use Sodium Tetrachloropalladate (II).

The term "Sodium Chloropalladite (II)" is just sloppy chemical nomenclature, even if it is commonly used in the alt process world. Without specifying the number of chlorides the name is ambiguous and does not specify a single unique compound.

 

[MurrayMinchin]

Murry,

You'll want to use Sodium Tetrachloropalladate (II).

The term "Sodium Chloropalladite (II)" is just sloppy chemical nomenclature, even if it is commonly used in the alt process world. Without specifying the number of chlorides the name is ambiguous and does not specify a single unique compound.

Thanks a bunch!

Sadly, my Dad's chemical engineering DNA got sliced, diced, and dropped from my genetic makeup.

 

[koraks]

You'll want to use Sodium Tetrachloropalladate (II).

Is there a reason why Pd(II)Cl (CAS 7647-10-1) could not be used as the source of Pd for toning? It's still Pd(II) after all. Wikipedia suggests you can turn Pd(II)Cl into Na2PdCl4 by dissolving it in a solution of sodium hydroxide.

 

[fgorga]

Is there a reason why Pd(II)Cl (CAS 7647-10-1) could not be used as the source of Pd for toning? It's still Pd(II) after all. Wikipedia suggests you can turn Pd(II)Cl into Na2PdCl4 by dissolving it in a solution of sodium hydroxide.

My understanding is that Pd(II)Cl2 is insoluble in water... see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_tetrachloropalladate.

This article also states that one can convert Pd(II)Cl2 to Na2PdCl4 by adding sodium chloride not sodium hydroxide. However, I really doubt that the effort involved is worth it given that the 'proper' compound is readily available.

 

[koraks]

I'm sorry, I'm not sure how I misread this. But I'd expect that a solution with some hydrochloric acid (in which palladium chloride apparently readily dissolves) and a source of sodium ions should yield sodium tetrachloropalladate.

The practical utility is that perhaps now and where you live the appropriate salt is obtainable. But this is not guaranteed to be the case forever and everywhere, hence the musings. There are several other examples where a related compound is obtainable, but not the one you actually need.

 

[MurrayMinchin]

I just suck it up and pay shipping costs. Part of the price of living far from the madding crowds in a little city at roads end that’s perched in the midst of Wild Country.

 

[Tom Taylor]

As a toner, I've been using B&S's Palladium Solution #3 which is currently on sale:

Palladium Solution #3​

$60.00 – $2,820.00

Sodium Chloropalladite 15% solution. Standard solution for classic Platinum and Palladium printing.
One 25ml bottle equal to 625 drops of coating solution

 

[fgorga]

I'm sorry, I'm not sure how I misread this. But I'd expect that a solution with some hydrochloric acid (in which palladium chloride apparently readily dissolves) and a source of sodium ions should yield sodium tetrachloropalladate.

Remember, I am a (retired) biochemist not an inorganic chemist!

My understanding is that once you raise the chloride concentration high enough, the tertachloropalladate complex forms. Thus if you use NaCl, the sodium will be there naturally when you go to crystallize out the disodium salt.

The practical utility is that perhaps now and where you live the appropriate salt is obtainable. But this is not guaranteed to be the case forever and everywhere, hence the musings. There are several other examples where a related compound is obtainable, but not the one you actually need.

Understood. Of course the devil is in the details when making such conversions and a mistake with compounds containing palladium is a very expensive mistake. Thus, I would attempt this as a very last resort.

 

[MurrayMinchin]

As a toner, I've been using B&S's Palladium Solution #3 which is currently on sale:

Palladium Solution #3​

$60.00 – $2,820.00

Sodium Chloropalladite 15% solution. Standard solution for classic Platinum and Palladium printing.
One 25ml bottle equal to 625 drops of coating solution.

The B&S sale is for a 15% solution, so has 1.5 grams of Palladium in 10 ml.

The Artcraft regular price is $31.57 per gram, so for $63.14 (regular price) I'll be getting 10ml of a 20% solution...more *bang* for the buck.

Also, as a bonus, they carry the Silver Oxide needed for Argyrotypes. (Sure, I've seen ways to 'cook up' Silver Oxide from Silver Nitrate, but don't want to go down that particular path).

 

[fgorga]

As a toner, I've been using B&S's Palladium Solution #3 which is currently on sale:

Palladium Solution #3​

$60.00 – $2,820.00

Sodium Chloropalladite 15% solution. Standard solution for classic Platinum and Palladium printing.
One 25ml bottle equal to 625 drops of coating solution

Yup that works.

You pay for the convenience of the pre-made solution, about a 20% premium. The price of sodium tetrachloropalladate from ArtCraft is US$31.57 per gram at this writing.

Interestingly, B&S sells only palladium chloride as a powder while the solution they sell is sodium chloropallidate. I wonder why. My guess is that they convert the chloride salt to a cholorpalllidate solution but do not purify or assay the resulting solution for the Pd to Cl ratio.

 

[MurrayMinchin]

So...how easily does this stuff stir into distilled water?

Tricks and/or tips?

 

[koraks]

So...how easily does this stuff stir into distilled water?

It just dissolves. It's very readily soluble.

 

[MurrayMinchin]

It just dissolves. It's very readily soluble.

Perfect, thanks.

 

[Tom Taylor]

According to my 12th edition of Hawley's Condensed Chemical Dictionary sodium chloroplatinate is a "yellow powder, soluble in alcohol, water. Noncombustible. Grade: Technical, CP. Use: Etching on zinc, indelible ink, microscopy, photography, plating, catalyst, determination of potassium."

 

[MurrayMinchin]

According to my 12th edition of Hawley's Condensed Chemical Dictionary sodium chloroplatinate is a "yellow powder, soluble in alcohol, water. Noncombustible. Grade: Technical, CP. Use: Etching on zinc, indelible ink, microscopy, photography, plating, catalyst, determination of potassium."

Thanks.