Palladium choices for toner?

MurrayMinchin

Membership Council
Subscriber
Joined
Jan 9, 2005
Messages
5,481
Location
North Coast BC Canada
Format
Hybrid
Hi there,

Sandy King's palladium toner formula, here: https://www.alternativephotography.com/the-kallitype-process/ says to use a 20% solution of Sodium Chloropalladite (II).

I'll be using this for Argyrotypes and have found the Silver Oxide needed for that process at Artcraft Chemicals. They sell two forms of Palladium;

1) Sodium Tetrachloropalladate (II) and,

2) Palladium (II) Chloride.

Can either of these be used as a direct replacement in King's formula...or...can one be used with an adjustment to the percentage of dilution?

Artcraftchemicals

Artcraftchemicals
artcraftchemicals.com
 

fgorga

Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2015
Messages
769
Location
New Hampshire
Format
Multi Format
Murry,

You'll want to use Sodium Tetrachloropalladate (II).

The term "Sodium Chloropalladite (II)" is just sloppy chemical nomenclature, even if it is commonly used in the alt process world. Without specifying the number of chlorides the name is ambiguous and does not specify a single unique compound.
 
OP
OP

MurrayMinchin

Membership Council
Subscriber
Joined
Jan 9, 2005
Messages
5,481
Location
North Coast BC Canada
Format
Hybrid
Thanks a bunch!

Sadly, my Dad's chemical engineering DNA got sliced, diced, and dropped from my genetic makeup.
 

koraks

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
22,696
Location
Europe
Format
Multi Format
fgorga said:
You'll want to use Sodium Tetrachloropalladate (II).
Click to expand...

Is there a reason why Pd(II)Cl (CAS 7647-10-1) could not be used as the source of Pd for toning? It's still Pd(II) after all. Wikipedia suggests you can turn Pd(II)Cl into Na2PdCl4 by dissolving it in a solution of sodium hydroxide.
 

fgorga

Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2015
Messages
769
Location
New Hampshire
Format
Multi Format
koraks said:
Is there a reason why Pd(II)Cl (CAS 7647-10-1) could not be used as the source of Pd for toning? It's still Pd(II) after all. Wikipedia suggests you can turn Pd(II)Cl into Na2PdCl4 by dissolving it in a solution of sodium hydroxide.
Click to expand...

My understanding is that Pd(II)Cl2 is insoluble in water... see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_tetrachloropalladate.

This article also states that one can convert Pd(II)Cl2 to Na2PdCl4 by adding sodium chloride not sodium hydroxide. However, I really doubt that the effort involved is worth it given that the 'proper' compound is readily available.
 

koraks

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
22,696
Location
Europe
Format
Multi Format
I'm sorry, I'm not sure how I misread this. But I'd expect that a solution with some hydrochloric acid (in which palladium chloride apparently readily dissolves) and a source of sodium ions should yield sodium tetrachloropalladate.

The practical utility is that perhaps now and where you live the appropriate salt is obtainable. But this is not guaranteed to be the case forever and everywhere, hence the musings. There are several other examples where a related compound is obtainable, but not the one you actually need.
 
OP
OP

MurrayMinchin

Membership Council
Subscriber
Joined
Jan 9, 2005
Messages
5,481
Location
North Coast BC Canada
Format
Hybrid
I just suck it up and pay shipping costs. Part of the price of living far from the madding crowds in a little city at roads end that’s perched in the midst of Wild Country.
 

fgorga

Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2015
Messages
769
Location
New Hampshire
Format
Multi Format
koraks said:
I'm sorry, I'm not sure how I misread this. But I'd expect that a solution with some hydrochloric acid (in which palladium chloride apparently readily dissolves) and a source of sodium ions should yield sodium tetrachloropalladate.
Click to expand...
Remember, I am a (retired) biochemist not an inorganic chemist!

My understanding is that once you raise the chloride concentration high enough, the tertachloropalladate complex forms. Thus if you use NaCl, the sodium will be there naturally when you go to crystallize out the disodium salt.
Understood. Of course the devil is in the details when making such conversions and a mistake with compounds containing palladium is a very expensive mistake. Thus, I would attempt this as a very last resort.
 
OP
OP

MurrayMinchin

Membership Council
Subscriber
Joined
Jan 9, 2005
Messages
5,481
Location
North Coast BC Canada
Format
Hybrid
The B&S sale is for a 15% solution, so has 1.5 grams of Palladium in 10 ml.

The Artcraft regular price is $31.57 per gram, so for $63.14 (regular price) I'll be getting 10ml of a 20% solution...more *bang* for the buck.

Also, as a bonus, they carry the Silver Oxide needed for Argyrotypes. (Sure, I've seen ways to 'cook up' Silver Oxide from Silver Nitrate, but don't want to go down that particular path).
 

fgorga

Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2015
Messages
769
Location
New Hampshire
Format
Multi Format

Yup that works.

You pay for the convenience of the pre-made solution, about a 20% premium. The price of sodium tetrachloropalladate from ArtCraft is US$31.57 per gram at this writing.

Interestingly, B&S sells only palladium chloride as a powder while the solution they sell is sodium chloropallidate. I wonder why. My guess is that they convert the chloride salt to a cholorpalllidate solution but do not purify or assay the resulting solution for the Pd to Cl ratio.
 
OP
OP

MurrayMinchin

Membership Council
Subscriber
Joined
Jan 9, 2005
Messages
5,481
Location
North Coast BC Canada
Format
Hybrid
So...how easily does this stuff stir into distilled water?

Tricks and/or tips?
 
OP
OP

MurrayMinchin

Membership Council
Subscriber
Joined
Jan 9, 2005
Messages
5,481
Location
North Coast BC Canada
Format
Hybrid
Thanks.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Menu
Log in
Register
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…