Ownership of negatives vs goodwill

Thomassauerwein · Feb 18, 2004

I really do do like that statement, If I could remember it I might even use it! Course that means I need to embrace it understand it, maybe even have answers. I'd be in trouble then sooo, Great statement and I'll leave it at that.

George Losse · Feb 18, 2004

blansky said:
OK. Let's take it to the next level.

Is this the same thing. Can we rationalize and say it's my negative and I can give it away or destroy it if I want to. But the question is, if you weren't planning on doing that until the outcry from someone, why are you doing it now.

Is saying goodwill is more important than my integrity as an artist. Are we selling out.

I know, your saying, it just isn't that important. But are you sure. Someone is dictating to you and you are giving in.

Is it question of character. Is it a question of integrity. Is my stuff sacrosanct or not.

Michael MCBlane

Michael,

I think you might have gotten a more passionate response from everyone if you said that couldn't crop the negatives.

Me, I wouldn't give them anything, no matter what the subject was, no matter what the fall out was, no matter if the images were the best images I ever made or the worst. That's my work, good bad or otherwise.

Would I give up negatives to keep a friendship?
If the question was even asked, then they are not really my friends, why try to save a friendship that is not really there.

The touchy subject here has been the "nudes" I'm glad you asked the question what if were a different subject. It's been fun watching the responses.

I think its been said a couple of times, most people have trouble with nudes. Its a tough subject to talk about, its a very tough subject to shoot, and more often then not its a tough subject to look at.

Sean · Feb 18, 2004

*fyi- a few posts here have been moderated to keep things on topic, thanks, Sean

George Losse · Feb 18, 2004

dnmilikan said:
Thomas,

It addresses an examination of an egotistical attachment to our production of "art". Am "I" somehow different from all living things? Do other living things form attachments in the ways that humans do? Can "I" learn something from what "I" observe? Do "I" actually create art or am "I" a means by which creativity is made manifest? It seems to me that attachments whether they be to "art", to an idea, to an opinion, or to an object are the source of all suffering.

I recognize that I have a more global view then many embrace.

Don,

I understand what your saying here about artists ad their egos. But I have a little different view. I was shooting a model/puppeteer in her studio a couple of years ago. She had a wonderful quote from a dancer form the thirties or something (I don't remember the person even though she explained it to me) that I think is also valid even though from a different view.

"There is a vitality, a life force, an energy, a quickening that is translated through you into action. And because there is only one of you in all of time, this expression is unique and if you block it, it will never exist through any other medium and be lost. The world will never have it. It is not your business to determine how good it is, nor how valuable, nor how it compares to other expressions. It is your business to keep it yours clearly and directly, and to keep the channel open!"

I'll try to post one of the images of her flying through the air in front of the wall with this quote painted on it.

George Losse · Feb 18, 2004

this appears to be on two pages.....

so I'm editing out the second one......

my applogies if this showed up twice because of refreshing problems on my end. If that's the case I'll to to write it again.

noblebeast · Feb 18, 2004

dnmilikan said:
...addresses an examination of an egotistical attachment to our production of "art". Am "I" somehow different from all living things? Do other living things form attachments in the ways that humans do? Can "I" learn something from what "I" observe? Do "I" actually create art or am "I" a means by which creativity is made manifest? It seems to me that attachments whether they be to "art", to an idea, to an opinion, or to an object are the source of all suffering.

I recognize that I have a more global view then many embrace.

I guess I fall more towards Don's perspective on this. Especially if I place myself in Robert's predicament, I would give up the negs and, hopefully, my attachment to them, realizing the the act of creation is the prize - the fruits are just stuff. And, like all the other stuff here on the planet, including our bodies, it's just on loan.

That said, my view would change depending on who was asking me to give up the fruits of my labor. If it was a different situation and I felt someone (a person or an institution) was basically attempting to wield power or control over me, I think my reaction would be less Zen-like. As someone once said, "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything."

blansky · Feb 18, 2004

Don Wrote:

It seems to me that attachments whether they be to "art", to an idea, to an opinion, or to an object are the source of all suffering.

Donald:

As an admirer of Eastern Philosophy as yourself, I'm wondering with that statement you believe yourself to be a pacifist.

Not to get off subject too much but my take on Eastern Philosophy is one of balance. " For the maintenence of peace, one must prepare for war".
Their cultures produces some of the fiercest warriors the world has known.

If everyone believed that nothing was worth fighting for, we would be controlled by facists. Your sentence leaves no room for balance, yin-yang, masculine/ feminine, only submission.

I find it hard to believe that you really feel that way.

As some have said, is there only gray, is there nothing that is black and whiite? Right vs wrong. Nothing that we are willing to fight for.

I climbed all the way up to the top of this damn mountain so please give me an eloquent response. Not some "when you can snatch the pebble from my hand..."

Michael McBlane
Live from Tibet

Donald Miller · Feb 18, 2004

blansky said:
Don Wrote:

It seems to me that attachments whether they be to "art", to an idea, to an opinion, or to an object are the source of all suffering.

Click to expand...

Donald:

As an admirer of Eastern Philosophy as yourself, I'm wondering with that statement you believe yourself to be a pacifist. Nope never said that at all. Said that I believe that attachments are the source of suffering. As such I examine the place of attachments in my life.

Not to get off subject too much but my take on Eastern Philosophy is one of balance. " For the maintenence of peace, one must prepare for war".
Their cultures produces some of the fiercest warriors the world has known.
In all cultures there are various factions. A culture does not consist of a group of automatons. Not all members of a culture are aligned with a given discipline.

If everyone believed that nothing was worth fighting for, we would be controlled by facists. Your sentence leaves no room for balance, yin-yang, masculine/ feminine, only submission. That begs the question "who is controlling what"?
I find it hard to believe that you really feel that way. Amazing isn't it?
As some have said, is there only gray, is there nothing that is black and whiite? Right vs wrong. Nothing that we are willing to fight for. Isn't gray a mixture of black and white? That means that it consists of all.

I climbed all the way up to the top of this damn mountain so please give me an eloquent response. Not some "when you can snatch the pebble from my hand..." "I don't know eloquent words, Michael, only what I believe to be the truth and that is beyond words.

For heavens sake come down from the mountain, Michael, you may get a nosebleed up there.

Michael McBlane
Live from Tibet

Robert Kennedy · Feb 19, 2004

That said, my view would change depending on who was asking me to give up the fruits of my labor. If it was a different situation and I felt someone (a person or an institution) was basically attempting to wield power or control over me, I think my reaction would be less Zen-like. As someone once said, "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything."

I think you hit the nail on the head there.

The feeling I get from all of this is that this guy wants CONTROL. Pure control. Control of MY images. Control of MY work. My friend has always said that she is only doing this because "he is so upset."

You know if she had come to me with genuine concerns of her own (these are HIS concerns as far as I have been told), and a willingness to talk about things, I would be much more open to working something out. Instead I got asked at the WORST possible time, and I was harrassed the day after my wedding, all because this creepy little freak is upset at the idea of someone else having images of his future-wife.

Which makes me wonder if he isn't hanging around the house of the guy who took her school pictures every year.......

Flotsam · Feb 19, 2004

It sounds like there might be an issue of him wanting to excercise his control over her as well.

Fintan · Feb 20, 2004

In my opinion it doesn't matter whether the photos were scenic or nude, these people demanded negatives that were not theirs and had the audacity to raise it at RKs wedding. If his former model asked him in a more appropriate manner and at a more reasonable time, I'm sure this whole issue would have been more amicably resolved.

For what its worth, I would react in the very same way as RK [I'm a Kennedy too so maybe thats why]

I think this guy is actually punishing his wife for the modelling by making war with RK. The guy is either a prude, lacking in self-esteem or sexually dysfunctional [or all three] and he is certainly a bully. She just wants it to end, I'm sure she is getting plenty of hassle that RK does not hear about. The higher value RK places on these photos, the more this guy wants them off him and the more satisfied he will be if he gets them in the end of this.

Few photographers would ever give away their negatives for free. Few non-photographers would understand why not. Most women non-photographers would take the models side in this argument.

When in a lose-lose situation, taking the high moral ground is always a good thing to do. Losers that lose with dignity in the face of a bully always come out the true winners.

Only RK knows what he wants to do. I think he and his wife are due an apology for having this raised during their wedding.

Personally I would ask this guy for a small donation to charity to cover the cost of the film only. Get him to pay it, not her as he is the one thats at issue. [ http://www.fotokids.org/en/home.html would be an excellent charity to choose ]

I would place a low value on these photos/negatives so I think you should destroy them, they are destroyed already in reality because they are tainted by this aggravation. Give your model an envelope with them shredded.

I have seen RKs photos on his personal website, there are some really great stuff there. Models come and go, your next one will be even better. I wouldn't give this guy the satisfaction by prolonging it.

Rise above it.

Ownership of negatives vs goodwill

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