Overexposed

Rick A

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I've used reflective metering and spot (reflective) metering and incident metering, and use (trust) incident to give me accurate readings in nearly 100% of my exposures without missing the mark. I cannot say that about reflected (in-camera especially) readings. Spot metering(for zone system) can become a burden and cunfusing causing lost shots more often than not(for me)and I've been at this for nearly 50 years. IMO, you cant beat a quality incident meter for getting the job done. It is also the simplest to use, that suits me fine.
 

JBrunner

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Interesting how different folks do things. I gave up incident metering long ago. I use a spot meter for almost everything (I hate in-camera metering, I just do, and yes I realize many people love it, but I only have one camera that has a meter, and I hardly use that camera, so maybe it's a comfort zone thing) So I ask myself why do I use a spot meter almost exclusively these days? I guess I feel more informed knowing where everything is, more than just the light incident, but the value of each thing. My exposures these days often deviate significantly from what an incident meter might say. Does it really make for a better negative, or at least give me more information? I would have to say yes at least in my case, but I don't think it is a magic bullet. It also takes a fair bit of experience with a spot meter to get the benefit. I worked just fine with an incident meter for the first decade of my career, however after a while I never just pointed it at the camera from the subject and read the exposure. I'd read the key side, the shadow side, the dark part under the table, etc. I kind of used it like a spot meter that I had to walk around with. Maybe that's why I got so comfortable with a spot meter. As I realized that the averaging of an incident metering seemed a way to make an average negative, I wanted something more. Of course when I take ten spot readings, I still have to calculate an exposure that is an average, because you only get to pick one exposure on one sheet or frame, but I find that I might pick an exposure that favors a particular thing over another, and that gets me negs I can print better. I find it much easier to burn and dodge what I've chosen to, rather than what I have to. To me, incident meters offer the "serving suggestion" picture on the tv dinner box, while spot meters get me in the kitchen. Not for everybody, nor should it be. It's just the way I roll.
 
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conorbc

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Imagine that you're positioned under a shady tree, camera on tripod, and the scene in the viewfinder is of a bright, sunlight meadow. If you use an incidence light meter where you're standing, under the tree, it will indicate that you should use a much longer exposure than the scene in the viewfinder requires, where the sunny 16 rule would actually apply. A reflected light meter pointed at, say, grass directly illuminated by the sun, would indicate the correct exposure to use, give or take.

The difficulty with reflected metering is estimating the difference in reflectance between what the meter is seeing and an 18% grey card, against which light meters are calibrated. The beauty of reflectance meters, and especially of narrow-angle spot meters, is that the range of reflectances in the scene can be measured and an exposure chosen that will render the scene in a way that the photographer chooses.
 

Rick A

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Ah-- thats why I stated "nearly" 100% of the time. I realize that one type of metering cannot do the job 100% of the time, it is my preferred method. I still have reflected metering capability, as well as a spot meter. I guess you could say I'm lazy because I dont like to do the math involved in spot metering and the zone system. I just like keeping my life as simple as possible. Maybe thats why my OM-4 sits on the shelf, and I shoot non-metered cameras most of the time.
 

JBrunner

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The coolest thing about analog photography is that there are like six ways to do almost anything.
 

2F/2F

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Thank you JBrunner. That was my whole point. If I flip the incident meter, and assuming the typical arrangement of a light source, subject, and meter, the light falling on the incident meter will be different.

That was not your point at all. Your point was that in any case, the light falling on a incident meter's dome if it is flipped must be less than the light falling on the subject. You made this statement based on your incorrect belief that the reflectivity of the subject is what an incident meter measures. Now, you add specific lighting conditions (making the new statement only apply to some pictures) and make the statement that the reading is always different (meaning that it is never the same) when the meter is flipped. So, what you just stated was not your "whole point" that you made earlier at all. It is, in fact, extremely different.


Well, once you add some "ifs" and conditions (little things such as, oh, just where the light is coming from: the most important specification in ANY photograph) it doesn't sound all that wrong.

It is also incredibly wrong to think that the light illuminating the subject (the main light) is always the strongest light in the composition. It is often not. The main light is not defined as the strongest light in existence when the photo was taken. It is the strongest light that is illuminating the part of the subject that you can see in the picture. If there is a stronger light behind the subject than there is in front of it, and you are shooting the front of the subject, the weaker light is still the main light, and the meter will read higher if you flip it toward the subject.

Again, you illustrated your belief that an incident meter's reading is changed by the the reflectivity of the subject. It is NOT, and this is the defining characteristic of an incident meter. The fact that it is not is pretty much the entire reason those who use them use them. This is the most basic thing to know about incident metering. Therefore, since you have shown in statement after statement that you do not understand it, it is logical that your points would be incorrect. Crap in, crap out, as the saying goes.

Again: All that matters is the light falling on the dome. The light falling on the dome when the meter is pointed at the subject can either be greater than, less than, or equal to the light falling on the dome when the meter is pointed at the camera from the subject. It depends. It depends on what light the subject is in compared to what light the meter is in.

As I understand it, the incident light meter measures light falling on the dome. It has no capability to distinguish light from source or light reflected from the subject. Light is light.

You are saying the words, but I do not think that you understand them, or else you would not have said the things you have said in this thread. In fact, the sentence prior to your "As I understand it" sentence, you say exactly the opposite when you mention the reflectivity of the subject changing an incident meter's reading.

Incident meters are very simple (another reason they are so good for so many things). They measure the light falling on the dome, and tell you how to expose to make something that is in that same light correctly exposed. That is all you need to know to know how to use one of them. It is very self explanatory if you understand that one thing you really need to know about incident meters. Understanding it leads you to being able to make intelligent decisions as to how to use it: If you want to expose for a thing, point the dome at the light that is illuminating the thing for which you want to expose. If you want to expose to average all of the light falling on an imaginary axis parallel to the film plane, orient the dome of the meter parallel with the film plane, from the middle of the subject. (FWIW, I almost never want the latter; the averaged exposure. I nearly always measure the light source itself.)

There are photographic situations in which the meter will read the same no matter which way you point the dome, and there are photographic situations in which the reading will change (either up or down) when you point the dome in a different direction. It depends. It depends on what light is hitting the dome compared to what light is hitting the subject.
 
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MattKing

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ralnphot;1029903 ..... Maybe thats why my OM-4 sits on the shelf said:
Rick:

If you ever need someone to take care of your OM-4 for you (you know, like a dog walker), my rates are very reasonable, and I would make sure that it would get lots of healthy exercise.

 

Rick A

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Rick:

If you ever need someone to take care of your OM-4 for you (you know, like a dog walker), my rates are very reasonable, and I would make sure that it would get lots of healthy exercise.


I would consider that, alas it has sat upon the shelf too long, and now must be sent to be CLA'd and new seals. I havent used the durned thing in 8 or 9 years. I put batteries in it the other day and it lights up, but it(like me)is stiff and crumbly. My daughter has been eye-balling it recently and asking about it, as she would like to use something other than her P&S, like dad with different lenses(she's 12). She's already taken over my work shop and tools, now its my cameras--sheesh!
 
OP
OP

ashokgoyal42

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I finally developed the two rolls in question. (That's how this discussion started.) Here are the results. (I can't upload the pics for some reason - will be back in a moment.

Important lessons learnt. Out of 20 shots 8 were normal, 7 were over exposed. But - and this is what I learnt - overexposure with a slow film like PanF is something that can be dealt with. All the shots are taken with an RZ67 and developed in diluted Perceptol, then scanned. Thanks everyone for your invaluable comments.
 

MattKing

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QUOTE: Can't figure out how to upload pics.

Ashok:

Either use the "Post Reply" function or the "Go Advanced" function below the "Quick Reply" box.

The attachment function is the little "paper clip" icon on the top line in the grey box.

Note the restrictions on file sizes and image sizes in the "Attachment Key" - remember that horizontal images have more space available to them then vertical ones.

Upload your image (after resizing? and adjusting the file size?).

Close the window and finish your post.

Hope this helps.
 
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ashokgoyal42

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The Pictures

Thanks to Matt, here are the picture .... they are reduced in size for APUG. You can see the larger detailed ones on the flickr stream.
 

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