Overdeveloped, overstained PMK negatives

DrPablo · Jun 9, 2007

I've taken to grossly overagitating my PMK negatives (in trays), because it's all I can do to prevent them from sticking together. (Yes, this is despite a pre-soak with Photo-Flo). Now I'm stuck with very dark negatives. Hopefully the compensating effect will preserve highlight detail (esp because I'm dealing with HP5+), but is there any way to reduce the stain? Do bleaches work?

Also, I'm getting prints from my gloves on negatives developed with PMK, but that never happens with XTOL.

This is adding to my truly disheartening experiences shooting 8x10. I can't seem to get a good negative out of it, and I blame it all on the frustrations of tray processing. The same film shot under the same conditions with 4x5 or 120 turn out fine. So it's clearly a darkroom problem, not an exposure problem.

jstraw · Jun 9, 2007

Your first problem might be overcome by increasing dilution.

David A. Goldfarb · Jun 9, 2007

PMK is normally used 1:2:100, so increased dilution is probably not the answer. Constant agitation is also the norm with PMK for tray processing (every 15 sec. in tanks), so that's probably not a problem either.

You don't do the afterbath do you? If you do, leave out the afterbath, and this will reduce the background stain.

Print the negs before you judge them. If you haven't used a pyro developer before, you can't really judge the negs by sight at first. They will be contrastier than they appear.

If the negs are in general too dense, look at the shadow detail on the neg, and consider whether you can use a higher EI. If the prints are too contrasty, consider reducing neg development time.

Tom Hoskinson · Jun 9, 2007

DrPablo said:
I've taken to grossly overagitating my PMK negatives (in trays), because it's all I can do to prevent them from sticking together. (Yes, this is despite a pre-soak with Photo-Flo). Now I'm stuck with very dark negatives. Hopefully the compensating effect will preserve highlight detail (esp because I'm dealing with HP5+), but is there any way to reduce the stain? Do bleaches work?

Also, I'm getting prints from my gloves on negatives developed with PMK, but that never happens with XTOL.

This is adding to my truly disheartening experiences shooting 8x10. I can't seem to get a good negative out of it, and I blame it all on the frustrations of tray processing. The same film shot under the same conditions with 4x5 or 120 turn out fine. So it's clearly a darkroom problem, not an exposure problem.

Paul, have you printed any of your problem PMK negatives or perfomed densitometry on them?

Also, if you have not already done so, I recommend that you read Sandy King's discussion of Pyro staining problems and difficulties associated with attempts to visually evaluate pyro image stain and general stain.

See: An Introduction to Pyro Staining Developers,
With Special Attention to the Pyrocat-HD Formula
by Sandy King

http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/PCat/pcat.html

dslater · Jun 9, 2007

DrPablo said:
I've taken to grossly overagitating my PMK negatives (in trays), because it's all I can do to prevent them from sticking together. (Yes, this is despite a pre-soak with Photo-Flo). Now I'm stuck with very dark negatives. Hopefully the compensating effect will preserve highlight detail (esp because I'm dealing with HP5+), but is there any way to reduce the stain? Do bleaches work?

Also, I'm getting prints from my gloves on negatives developed with PMK, but that never happens with XTOL.

This is adding to my truly disheartening experiences shooting 8x10. I can't seem to get a good negative out of it, and I blame it all on the frustrations of tray processing. The same film shot under the same conditions with 4x5 or 120 turn out fine. So it's clearly a darkroom problem, not an exposure problem.

Gordon Hutchings The Book of Pyro recomends a pre-soak with a weak Sodium Metaborate solution to prevent sticking - the point being that you need to pre-wet your negs in an alkaline solution to prevent sticking.

Dan

Tom Hoskinson · Jun 10, 2007

For Pyro tray processing and Development By Inspection I highly recommend the workshops conducted by Michael A Smith and Paula Chamlee. Very important is learning how to manipulate (shuffle) multiple sheets of film in a tray (with or without presoaking).

Michael and Paula demonstrate with a stack of fixed 8 x 10 film sheets - with the white lights on - they handle the film sheeets with Nitrile Gloves that have textured fingertips.

Practice with the lights on until you can do it smoothly and easily in the dark!

http://www.michaelandpaula.com/mp/devinsp.html

Dead Link Removed

Jon King · Jun 10, 2007

I've been using pyrocat-HD for medium format negatives for 6 months or so. I recently developed 15 rolls of 120 film, which in hindsight I overdeveloped for printing on silver, especially with high contrast scenes.

For future negatives, I'll cut my development but meanwhile I'm still left with images I can't go back and reshoot. The following is just a trick I picked up from APUG that is helping me get better images out of my messed up negatives:

Even with split grade printing, the grade 0/yellow exposure needed to get the highlights in place made the midtones totally muddy.

I found on an old thread, a suggestion, by Lee, if i recall ( I need to go find it again and thank him), to flash the paper, but with a magenta/grade 5 filter., rather than the suggestions I've normally seen to flash with no filter or a low contrast filter. The exposure is a bit fiddly, but when it was right, flashing with a high contrast filter gave a far better image than flashing with white light or with a low contrast filter. It seemed a counterintuitive to me, but it works - I've changed my intuition

DrPablo · Jun 10, 2007

Thanks for the tips.

I don't use the afterbath when the negatives are this dense. There seems to be plenty of detail, so I'd imagine they'll be printable. But I mainly want to use them for alternative processes, and my PMK-stained negatives need exorbitant exposure times for UV-based processes (I've needed as much as 18 hours for some cyanotypes, compared with 30 minutes for thinner, unstained negs).

I think the key to the density problem is just going to be a shorter development time. I'll try 8 minutes instead of 11 to start. I'll keep the continuous agitation going.

My pre-soak in water / photoflo helps to a large degree, but I still find there is enough occasional overlap in the tray that I get areas with less development. Also, the photoflo film really seems to have washed off within 5 minutes, and even slimy negatives begin to stick together after that.

I don't have sodium metaborate handy -- could I alkalinize the water with a little bit of baking soda or very dilute ammonia?

I haven't printed any PMK-stained 8x10 negatives except one that I got a good lith print out of; and I don't have a densitometer. It's quite sad that I've done a lot of 8x10 shooting lately, and yet I just can't get negatives that are worth my effort printing. I certainly no longer have the guts to develop more than two at a time. And I'm using a lot of volume to do it -- 2 liters of solution in an 11x14 tray (to minimize contact between negatives).

When I do get around to printing them, I'll just start with whatever contrast grade seems to fit the negative. It will probably be a relatively high grade for the ones I printed today. I seem to recall that overdevelopment in PMK increases the compensating effect in the highlights. It certainly seems in my limited experience that overdevelopment does not expand contrast nearly the way it does with XTOL.

Tom Hoskinson · Jun 10, 2007

DrPablo said:
Thanks for the tips.

I don't have sodium metaborate handy -- could I alkalinize the water with a little bit of baking soda or very dilute ammonia?

If you have sodium sulfite, you could use that - about 20 grams per liter of water. That should give your soak water a pH of about 9.2 and swell the emulsion gelatin a bit.

With any of the Pyrocat versions or with ABC Pyro I use a 2 to 5 minute 72F Deionized water presoak at Neutral pH. 72F is my darkroom ambient temperature. I don't use photoflo or any other wetting agent and I don't have any problems with sheets of film sticking together.

Tom Hoskinson · Jun 10, 2007

Caution: If too much sodium sulfite (or sodium bicarbonate ) is used, it will suppress Pyro staining. 20 grams per liter may be too much, 5 grams per liter should be ok.

Philippe-Georges · Jun 10, 2007

Sorry for intruding here, but can somebody explain the after bath to me, I just started working with Sandy's Pyro-HD (thank you Sandy!)?
How it works and it's purpose...

Philippe

Tom Hoskinson · Jun 10, 2007

leicam5 said:
Sorry for intruding here, but can somebody explain the after bath to me, I just started working with Sandy's Pyro-HD (thank you Sandy!)?
How it works and it's purpose...

Philippe

The afterbath was specific to Hutching's PMK Pyro processing procedure. It called for returning the film to soak in the spent (oxidized) developer post development.

Hutchings no longer recommends this procedure since it only increases the level of general stain on the developed film.

Sandy King has never advocated the use of an afterbath with the Pyrocat developers.

dslater · Jun 10, 2007

Tom Hoskinson said:
Hutchings no longer recommends this procedure since it only increases the level of general stain on the developed film.

Hmm - you know I have read the same. As an alternative to an after bath of used developer, he also stated you can use a solution of Sodium Metaborate - about 1/2 tsp. pre liter. I have never tried the after bath of used developer, but I have used an after bath of sodium metaborate. My reasoning is that since the used developer is oxidized then it's bound to increase general stain, while the metaborate solution simply provides an alkaline environment to intensify the stain. Does anyone know if the metaborate solution works better than used developer?

dslater · Jun 10, 2007

DrPablo said:
Thanks for the tips.

I don't have sodium metaborate handy -- could I alkalinize the water with a little bit of baking soda or very dilute ammonia?

Sodium metaborate is readily available at B&S and Photo Formulary - it's quite inexpensive. Also, the PMK solution B consists of nothing but sodium metaborate and water, so in a pinch, you could use some solution B.

dslater · Jun 10, 2007

DrPablo said:
Thanks for the tips.
I certainly no longer have the guts to develop more than two at a time. And I'm using a lot of volume to do it -- 2 liters of solution in an 11x14 tray (to minimize contact between negatives).

If you're already only processing 2 sheets at a time, why don't you try just processing individual sheets? You could then gain control of your agitation. According to Hutchings, this is the best way to do it (in terms of negative quality) anyway. Do you have the Book of Pyro? If not I strongly suggest you get it - it contains a wealth of information on using PMK Pyro.

Good luck,

Dan

Tom Hoskinson · Jun 10, 2007

dslater said:
If you're already only processing 2 sheets at a time, why don't you try just processing individual sheets? You could then gain control of your agitation. According to Hutchings, this is the best way to do it (in terms of negative quality) anyway. Do you have the Book of Pyro? If not I strongly suggest you get it - it contains a wealth of information on using PMK Pyro.

Good luck,

Dan

Dan, Good advice, IMO, to go to single sheet processing.

Also: I repeat my earlier recommendation; Go here:
http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/PCat/pcat.html

And read:

An Introduction to Pyro Staining Developers,
With Special Attention to the Pyrocat-HD Formula
by Sandy King

David A. Goldfarb · Jun 10, 2007

I find I get more even results with two or more negs than with a single neg in a tray. With a single neg I tend to get dark edges from increased turbulence near the edge of the tray.

On the other hand if you're only doing two negs at a time, constant agitation may be too much. You might try one cycle every 15 sec., if you're only doing two in a tray.

dslater · Jun 10, 2007

David A. Goldfarb said:
I find I get more even results with two or more negs than with a single neg in a tray. With a single neg I tend to get dark edges from increased turbulence near the edge of the tray.

Hmm - how big is your tray? Hutchings mentions this problem and states using a larger tray as the solution. I have never noticed this when I tray develop 4x5 negs in an 8x10 tray - If you're developing 8x10 negs in an 11x14 tray I can see how this could happen - might be worth trying a 16x20 tray for 8x10 negs.

Dan

sanking · Jun 10, 2007

dslater said:
Hmm - you know I have read the same. As an alternative to an after bath of used developer, he also stated you can use a solution of Sodium Metaborate - about 1/2 tsp. pre liter. I have never tried the after bath of used developer, but I have used an after bath of sodium metaborate. My reasoning is that since the used developer is oxidized then it's bound to increase general stain, while the metaborate solution simply provides an alkaline environment to intensify the stain. Does anyone know if the metaborate solution works better than used developer?

The problem with the afterbath, whether it is used developer or a fresh metaborate solution, is that it merely increases B+F or general stain, not proportional stain. This has two effects. First, printing times will be increased slightly. Probably not much of an issue for silver printers but for alternative printers any increase in printing times is very undesirable. Second, the additional stain may reduce slightly the appearance of grain. For 35mm or roll film formats this may be desirable, but for sheet film any reduction in the appearance of grain would be much to small to make any difference.

My opinion is that the afterbath is a waste of time. However, it may have some benefits with some films in 35mm and roll film so you might want to test it by making a large magnification enlargement from negatives of the same scene processed with and without the afterbath.

Sandy King

David A. Goldfarb · Jun 10, 2007

dslater said:
Hmm - how big is your tray? Hutchings mentions this problem and states using a larger tray as the solution. I have never noticed this when I tray develop 4x5 negs in an 8x10 tray - If you're developing 8x10 negs in an 11x14 tray I can see how this could happen - might be worth trying a 16x20 tray for 8x10 negs.

Dan

I use 11x14" trays for 8x10". 16x20 is a very large tray for 8x10" negs, requiring an unnecessarily large volume of solution, particularly if you're developing with a one-shot pyro developer (I usually use ABC for 8x10" and larger). The problem is easily avoided in an 11x14" tray simply by developing more than one neg.

DrPablo · Jun 10, 2007

How short is the working life of PMK? I feel like its strength wanes within about 20 minutes, so if I'm developing sheets one by one I'll go through it extremely quickly. Of course with a single sheet at a time I can do an 8x10 sheet in an 8x10 tray and save some.

David A. Goldfarb · Jun 10, 2007

It's pretty short. 20 min. is a good guess.

A single 8x10" sheet in an 8x10" tray will very likely give you edge darkening.

You could try processing single sheets in a rotary drum, dumping the developer halfway through the development time and replacing it with fresh developer with PMK or using something more suited to rotary development like Rollo Pyro or Pyrocat-HD.

DrPablo · Jun 10, 2007

What causes the edge darkening?

I get that with medium format rollfilm sometimes if I'm not constantly agitating it.

David A. Goldfarb · Jun 10, 2007

There is more turbulence near the edges of the tray normally, so you get more agitation at the edges, causing the negs to be darker at the edges or the prints to be lighter.

If you wanted to do one sheet at a time without this effect, you might consider brush development (do a search, and you'll find a few threads on this topic).

garysamson · Jun 10, 2007

Another approach to developing sheet film in trays is to set up two trays of developer and move each sheet from the first tray to the second. When you have moved all the sheets to the second tray reverse the process and continue this procedure back and forth until the end of the development time. PMK is so inexpensive that the cost of dev. for the second tray is negligible.

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