Over Stopping...Over Fixing

CMoore · Sep 19, 2017

I realize there can be a dozen variables, but.....Generally speaking, with B & W prints...what happens if you :
1 Stop too long
2. Fix too long
and how much time is involved with that.?
How long would you have to Stop or Fix before it became a problem you could see on an 8x10, RC Variable Contrast piece of paper .....for example.
Thank You

Rick A · Sep 19, 2017

Can you leave a print in the stop for too long? Maybe, but it would be an awfully long time. As for the fixer, yes, you possibly can. It (again) would have to be a very long time. The image could begin to degrade, or the paper could begin to separate from the emulsion. But, I think we would be talking hours here, not minutes. Fiber based paper shouldn't need more than 30 seconds in the stop, RC paper only needs a couple of scant seconds, unless the stop is spent. Using modern rapid fixersonly require a couple of minutes to completely fix an image. I use Eco Pro Neutral that only needs four minutes total time for FB, and 90 seconds for RC. Leaving a print in the wash is more of a concern than chemicals, RC paper only needs a couple of minutes to wash, depending on fixer, and tendencies are to over wash.

faberryman · Sep 19, 2017

How long were you thinking about? And why?

Sirius Glass · Sep 19, 2017

Rick A said:
Can you leave a print in the stop for too long? Maybe, but it would be an awfully long time. As for the fixer, yes, you possibly can. It (again) would have to be a very long time. The image could begin to degrade, or the paper could begin to separate from the emulsion. But, I think we would be talking hours here, not minutes. Fiber based paper shouldn't need more than 30 seconds in the stop, RC paper only needs a couple of scant seconds, unless the stop is spent. Using modern rapid fixersonly require a couple of minutes to completely fix an image. I use Eco Pro Neutral that only needs four minutes total time for FB, and 90 seconds for RC. Leaving a print in the wash is more of a concern than chemicals, RC paper only needs a couple of minutes to wash, depending on fixer, and tendencies are to over wash.

+1

removed account4 · Sep 19, 2017

not sure about stop bath
but i have heard
if the fix is too strong
and you leave prints in too long
you run the risk of "bleaching"
the print ..
ive never seen a bleached print from fixer
and i have left prints ( FB/RC both )
in fix for over an hour before ...

Gerald C Koch · Sep 19, 2017

Leaving a print too long in the stop bath would have no effect. If you use a rapid fix then leaving a print too long will result bleaching of the image.

CMoore · Sep 19, 2017

faberryman said:
How long were you thinking about? And why?

How long.? I follow the instructions on the bottle.

Why.?
I am simply curious. If you need to fix for 1 Minute.....what happens if you fix fro 2x that long.....nothing.?
Just a "waste" of time, or does it do something "bad" to the print.?

faberryman · Sep 19, 2017

CMoore said:
How long.? I follow the instructions on the bottle.

Why.?
I am simply curious. If you need to fix for 1 Minute.....what happens if you fix fro 2x that long.....nothing.?
Just a "waste" of time, or does it do something "bad" to the print.?

It's different with RC and fiber based papers. RC papers don't absorb chemicals like fiber based papers. Over stop and over fix means you are going to need to wash longer with fiber based papers to leach out the chemicals. Follow the instructions and you should be fine.

Rick A · Sep 19, 2017

CMoore said:
How long.? I follow the instructions on the bottle.

Why.?
I am simply curious. If you need to fix for 1 Minute.....what happens if you fix fro 2x that long.....nothing.?
Just a "waste" of time, or does it do something "bad" to the print.?

It's a waste of time if done purposely, and no big deal if you get distracted for a few minutes.

CMoore · Sep 19, 2017

10-4. Thanks For The Info
I was just curious.
I have no desire to experiment with "Over" Stopping or Fixing.

Cholentpot · Sep 19, 2017

CMoore said:
10-4. Thanks For The Info
I was just curious.
I have no desire to experiment with "Over" Stopping or Fixing.

Over and out. Plain brown bag, smokey over the hill, flash the joe, MM 135 fresh lunch buddy.

bence8810 · Sep 19, 2017

Is it not true though that if you over-fix you need to wash longer? That is with Fibre paper I mean...

Doremus Scudder · Sep 20, 2017

As mentioned already, "over-stopping" will do no more harm than leaving the print in water (of course, you can't do that for hours...).

Over-fixing is a bit more complicated. Acid or near-neutral pH rapid fixers (ammonium-thiosulfate-based fixers) will start to bleach the least dense areas in a print after a long time in the fix. However, I've purposely overfixed up to 10 minutes and could see no ill effects at that time, so I suspect that the time needed to visibly bleach a print would have to be longer than that. I understand that alkaline fixers do not have this problem.

The thing to be careful of is wash time. As bence8810 mentions above, longer fixing times can require longer wash times for fiber-base prints. This is especially true if you use the Ilford archival sequence, which uses "film-strength" rapid fixer for only one minute. The idea here is that the short fixing time keeps the fixer from soaking into the paper base and saturating the paper fibers. The shorter wash times with this regime result from only needing to wash fixer and byproducts out of the emulsion layer, not the paper base. If you fix a fiber-base print for much longer than that 60 seconds, you will saturate the paper base and need a suitably longer fixing time. Furthermore, if you leave fiber-base prints in the fix for much longer than optimum, especially if the fixer is approaching its capacity, complex compounds can adhere to the paper fibers that are harder to wash out, requiring even longer times.

Personally, I don't like or use the Ilford sequence; I use a two-bath fixing regime in "paper-strength" rapid fixer, fix for 1.5-2 minutes in each bath and wash appropriately longer. For any work-flow with fiber-base prints, a wash-aid (Hypo Clearing Agent or the like) step is crucial to getting a good wash.

Best,

Doremus

RalphLambrecht · Sep 20, 2017

CMoore said:
I realize there can be a dozen variables, but.....Generally speaking, with B & W prints...what happens if you :
1 Stop too long
2. Fix too long
and how much time is involved with that.?
How long would you have to Stop or Fix before it became a problem you could see on an 8x10, RC Variable Contrast piece of paper .....for example.
Thank You

overstopping: hard to do(hours)eventually the emulsion would lift off the base material.
overfilling::unlikely(20-30 minutes)the highlights in the print start bleaching out and it gets very hard to wash silver complexes out of FB paper.

WilmarcoImaging · Sep 20, 2017

I have experienced black dots in the image (white dots on the negative), and I associate them with too strong (maybe 2x the target concentration) stop bath. I eliminated acidic stop bath from my B&W workflow and haven't experienced these dots again.

I am not aware of any undue effects of reasonably long over fixing. Not sure what would happen if the film was in the fixer for more than an hour. Might have to try that with a piece of scrap film...

Bob Carnie · Sep 20, 2017

I use rapid fix and I find that if I leave the print in the fix for over 5 minutes I can see a bleaching in the highlights.. over a longer period of time this problem becomes a real issue.

M Carter · Sep 20, 2017

As far as proper fix and wash times, I've settled on testing every print that's a keeper:

I make sure to leave trimmable testing border space - just like 1/4". Fix the print for what seems the adequate time - quick rinse, blot the corner, add a droplet of straight selenium toner to the border. If it yellows, fix some more (I bought an empty nail polish bottle and keep a bit of KRST in it, makes it easy to brush a droplet on).

HCA, then wash the day's prints for 20-30 minutes and start testing borders with RHT. Generally just test a random print every 5 minutes past 30. Once one print shows proper washing, I test the rest. it's just one drop of RHT after all.

I always hated the idea of guessing wash times and overwashing to be sure. And my darkroom is on its own water meter so the Mrs. always knows how much I'm costing...

Bob Carnie · Sep 20, 2017

M Carter said:
As far as proper fix and wash times, I've settled on testing every print that's a keeper:

I make sure to leave trimmable testing border space - just like 1/4". Fix the print for what seems the adequate time - quick rinse, blot the corner, add a droplet of straight selenium toner to the border. If it yellows, fix some more (I bought an empty nail polish bottle and keep a bit of KRST in it, makes it easy to brush a droplet on).

HCA, then wash the day's prints for 20-30 minutes and start testing borders with RHT. Generally just test a random print every 5 minutes past 30. Once one print shows proper washing, I test the rest. it's just one drop of RHT after all.

I always hated the idea of guessing wash times and overwashing to be sure. And my darkroom is on its own water meter so the Mrs. always knows how much I'm costing...

You need to sell a few prints and the Mrs will feel better about your time in the dark.

darkroommike · Sep 20, 2017

In my opinion a properly made stop bath of correct dilution, will not harm prints in a normal span of time, with RC you might see some edge penetration that could lead to edge frilling.
Keep in mind though that a stop bath does not protect an image, like fixer does, could a long enough post development exposure to safelights lead to issues if more prints are introduced to the stop with just enough developer carryover to restart development on a now fogged print in the stop? I'll give a tentative yes to that hypothesis.
I think the whole fixer bleaching prints thing is much more complex than just a single yes or no: which paper (the Manual of Photography, aka The Ilford Manual of Photography), suggests that Chloride and Chloro-bromide papers are much more susceptible to bleaching of highlights, and that warm toned prints are also more susceptible, which makes sense, I guess), which fixer, condition of the fixer, strength of the fixer, how long an exposure, etc..
I do know that an old fixer, maybe bath one in a two bath schema, will make more of the less soluble argentothiosulfates, with a long time in the fix. The fresh second fix is supposed to correct that situation but if the prints are left in fix one long enough, maybe not. These insoluble complexes can turn yellow after processing at a later time. Once the complexes turn yellow no amount of re-fixing can correct the issue. Another hypothesis that I don't have time to test.

That's about everything I don't know but suspect on this. Kodak, Ilford, et al have written long and large about proper times and practices, so I'll just conclude with a "what they said".

Mainecoonmaniac · Sep 20, 2017

Gerald C Koch said:
Leaving a print too long in the stop bath would have no effect. If you use a rapid fix then leaving a print too long will result bleaching of the image.

Yes. Very true. Over fixing with fiber base paper will take longer to wash since it has more time to absorb fix. I fix my FB paper with fresh fix for a minute.

RalphLambrecht · Sep 20, 2017

Bob Carnie said:
I use rapid fix and I find that if I leave the print in the fix for over 5 minutes I can see a bleaching in the highlights.. over a longer period of time this problem becomes a real issue.

I experienced the same. Once left an RC print accidentially in the fix overnight; the next morning, the print was blank white.

ced · Sep 20, 2017

Never ever saw the need for a stop bath besides being just another nuisance and space taken by another tray & juggling of chemicals.

darkroommike · Sep 20, 2017

ced said:
Never ever saw the need for a stop bath besides being just another nuisance and space taken by another tray & juggling of chemicals.

Stop baths are certainly optional for film processing, most film developers are not strongly alkaline and a plain water rinse, 2-3 changes of water in the tank, is sufficient before fixing. Also the "stop bath" is only used once then discarded. A fresh "stop bath" (water) is used for the next roll so there is no build up of developer in the stop. And the pH does not creep.

With a traditional print processing workflow: alkaline developer, acid stop, acid fixer, the stop bath does two things, it stops the developer process RIGHT NOW and it neutralises developer carry over on the print, less alkali into the fixer means your fixer works longer stays stronger.

If your print processing workflow uses a neutral or alkaline fixer, a mild acid stop bath, maybe citric acid or boric acid, still stops development RIGHT NOW and minimizes the chances of developer carryover to the fixer preserving and prolonging the life of your fixer. If you choose to not use an acid stop bath I would at least use a water tray between developer and fix with frequent changes of water (perhaps after every print) or a tray with a tray siphon or other water exchange method. This will still extend the usability of your fixer.

Rick A · Sep 20, 2017

ced said:
Never ever saw the need for a stop bath besides being just another nuisance and space taken by another tray & juggling of chemicals.

Don't start that flame war here. Just stick to answering the OP's question.

Over Stopping...Over Fixing

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