Orwo and Agfa Paper (old)

I realised I put this in the wrong forum, so I post it here and the replies.

I see sometimes some Orwo and Agfa paper for sale, used and old stock.
Is this something people have experience of? Is it worth purchasing, if the price is right?
Also I don´t really understand the differences between the different papers, like Universal and Portrait for Orwo and the different Agfa ones. IT does not state too much in the information.
If people have used it perhaps they can say what they think.
Did Orwo/Agfa get to use variable contrast or is it always a fixed contrast.
What about Foma paper - they still make it.
Or Forte is that something.


Here are the replies:
AgX:
Agfa

The name indicated speed and tone.


Coding:

the first letter(s) indicated the name

the last letter indicated the gradation

the following three-figure combination indicated paper-thickness, paper-hue and surface

the last single figure indicated the gradation again

Railwayman3:
I've used old papers, up to maybe 10-15 years and stored in ordinary cool house conditions, with no problems at all. But, like outdated film, everything depends on reasonable storage conditions.

I'm fairly sure that all original Orwo paper will be over 20 years old, as the "old" company went out of business in the early 1990's. Later Agfa paper could be more recent, IIRC about 10 years ago that the changes in the Agfa company occurred?

Forte was a Hungarian company, which closed in 2007, made some great papers (in my limited experience with them).

Like any outdated photo product, you have to rely on the seller's comments as to storage, but, if the price is right and you have time to experiment, it may be worth a punt. But, as always with old photo supplies, don't rely on them for the photos of your daughter's wedding.

ndrs:
All old ORWO papers I have used have been good.
Most old Agfa papers i have used have had at least some fogging.
This includes batches of both aquired togheter and likely stored together.
My conclusion so far is that ORWO keeps significantly better, even if it's older.

pentaxpete:
I had to dump almost 100 sheets of ORWO BH1 paper 18x24 cms size as it was all FOGGED to grey and even with 1% Benzotriazole added to the print developer ( D72 Formula) I didn't make any difference -- I bought it just before the British Importer of ORWO films and papers went broke.

Jojje:
I've used some OrWo from the 1980's It has all been very good. Equally old Agfa Record Rapid RRW was fogged.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think these old East German papers may contain substances later doomed not-so-enviromentally-good, like cadmium, which makes them tolerate aging so well.
I have some really old Forte too in the yellow boxes working very well. Cost me almost nothing.

Huub:
How old is old? The general opinion seems to be that the multigraded Agfa paper doesn't keep well, which is in accordance with my own experience. It fogged pretty badly after only a couple of years and using a fog restrainer was mostly of no avail. The much older Portriga and Brovira speed might be better tho. And even the multigrade paper might be good for lith and alternative processes.

With the Orwo i have no experience.

ozphoto:
I'm a big Agfa lover and managed to pick up some Broviraspeed (from the 70s I think) a few years back, no idea how it was stored as it was at my local store in Adelaide.

The 100 sheet (unopened) 3.5x5" was superb, not one sheet failed me; the 100 sheetbox 5x7" had some edge fogging, but that was probably due to the interior bag not being wrapped well, and the 25 sheet 8x10" packs (x2) were varied - 1 (unopened pack) 10 sheets were fogged, the second pack opened - all but 3 sheets were fogged.

It's a bit of lucky-dip - personally I wouldn't be spending $$$ on the stuff (maybe $5-$10/box depending on the number of sheets), but when you do land a box that has several sheets to work with, it's a great feeling!

I might give it a try, one box or so, I just love the Orwo films, so I thought perhaps I might like the paper. It is not dead cheap, most of the boxes have 100 sheets.
Well one lives and learns.
So it might be better not to be variable contrast?
As they tend to age worse.

Also Adox/Ansco are making paper identically to the old Orwo, so perhaps it´s better just to get new ones.
And this company seems to make Orwo paper
bg-wernigerode.de

-) Adox is not nor was affiliated with Ansco

-) Adox' current paper is not based on Orwo paper but on a late Agfa paper

-) the Wernigerode firm does not make photographic paper, but only converts it

what do you mean converts it?

Probably means re-labeling.

Auroraua said:

what do you mean converts it?

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Cutting to sheets (and relabelling in this case).

I can only speak about Agfa RC VC paper. In my experience it does not age well although a lot of benzo will remove the age-fog to a large extent. I see a lot of old paper on U.K. e-bay. I'd always ask its age and how stored and if the seller has had it since original purchase. Quite often I suspect it has been obtained from shop or darkroom clearances and the seller has no idea as to its state or age and in many cases doesn't care about its condition either.

If you can establish that the seller is a darkroom enthusiast then ask if he will develop and fix an unexposed sheet to check if there is age-fog.

If you get told "where to go" then do just that and at top speed as it indicates that either the seller has something to hide or believes he can sell the stuff to someone who is unsuspecting. If so, then let him do just that.

In many cases on the U.K. e-bay the sellers want nearly as much as the price of new paper for stuff that may be waste-bin material only.

pentaxuser

I have to say at this point, as I have bought age-fogged paper for years and years, that there is a brand that sticks out as almost NEVER having this fogging problem: LUMINOS.

It was made in Germany and, no matter how old a box I had bought, somehow it was always good. If anyone knows why, please tell us. Even though it is not developer-incorporated, some such papers do fog with age, like Multigrade Deluxe (fogs moderately). - David Lyga

Agfa Brovira papers use to keep the quality for a very long time but the VC paper Agfa Multi Contrast Classic ( MCC ) 111 has rather poor keeping quality undeveloped. Even the last produced batch of the MCC 111 would give slight fogging and to low max contrast today. The resurrection came with ADOX MCC 110 which is almost identical to Agfa MCC 111 but with a slightly brighter white emulsion. It is also said to have better keeping quality.

Karl-Gustaf

One can honestly wonder if an inability for paper to age well is purposefully incorporated within the manufacturing process, in order to force new paper to be purchased. How many manufacturers want people to use old paper, as new, after years and years? It is something to consider ... a component of the 'free marketplace'. - David Lyga

That idea of building in a kind of time release or at least a lack of longevity makes much more sense with single products the consumer wants to last as cars, washing maschines etc.
But with photographic materials the consumer basically has the chance to buy just as much as he expects to use.

More likely that the manufacturers see no business reason for incurring the costs associated with designing and manufacturing products that have exceptionally long usable lives.

The good thing that Orwo and Agfa paper lith wonderfully in the main - whatever their age

I think I'm going to pass. new paper is not that much more expensive. just wort it if it's given or if it's dead cheap. it was about 20 euros for 100 sheet.

Schlapp said:

The good thing that Orwo and Agfa paper lith wonderfully in the main - whatever their age

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Which developer / concentration are you using? My Orwo liths nicely, but gives almost no colour.

RauschenOderKorn said:

Which developer / concentration are you using? My Orwo liths nicely, but gives almost no colour.

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You may not get an answer as this person has not visited for nearly 5 years. She was a fairly frequent visitor before she stopped visiting. Might be worth using "create a conversation" if she hasn't changed her e-mail address

pentaxuser

My experience of Agfa paper is that anything with "Speed" in the name is likely going to be fogged. Plain Brovira, though, has been holding up really well. The fiber based papers seem to fare much better than the rc papers. I think the advanced age-fogging of a lot of papers is the result of accelerators in the emulsion that speed up exposure - i.e., make the papers "faster" - and additives that control contrast. Lower contrast papers tend to age poorly, just as higher contrast papers age well but lose a grade or so of contrast. The lesson there is that there is age fog even if it's not completely visible on a developed/fixed sheet. It results in a muddy print.

I add extra potassium bromide to developers all the time since I use so much expired paper. But I must say that, when I use a new sheet of Foma or Ilford fiber paper (especially the Ilford warmtone - I like that a lot), there is a level of satisfaction that exceeds the inverse of the frustration I feel dealing with older paper. I can put up with the frustration and enjoy the new paper all the more for it.

I'd like to try Orwo paper - but I've never had the chance to buy any.

Don Heisz said:

My experience of Agfa paper is that anything with "Speed" in the name is likely going to be fogged. Plain Brovira, though, has been holding up really well. The fiber based papers seem to fare much better than the rc papers. I think the advanced age-fogging of a lot of papers is the result of accelerators in the emulsion that speed up exposure - i.e., make the papers "faster" - and additives that control contrast. Lower contrast papers tend to age poorly, just as higher contrast papers age well but lose a grade or so of contrast. The lesson there is that there is age fog even if it's not completely visible on a developed/fixed sheet. It results in a muddy print.

I add extra potassium bromide to developers all the time since I use so much expired paper. But I must say that, when I use a new sheet of Foma or Ilford fiber paper (especially the Ilford warmtone - I like that a lot), there is a level of satisfaction that exceeds the inverse of the frustration I feel dealing with older paper. I can put up with the frustration and enjoy the new paper all the more for it.

I'd like to try Orwo paper - but I've never had the chance to buy any.

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I am just using old papers for Lith. Agfa MCP/MCC is just great for that, and the old Orwo also works without problem. But I am not sure how it would uphold in a traditional process.

I have only recently bought my first packet of postcard sized pack of 50(!) year old FB paper, bought totally out of curiosity.

After much reading, I added some Benzotriazole @ 0.1% solution, with the amount needed being MUCH higher than the 1 or 2 ml that a lot of sites recommend. I think that I had to add about 15 ml to a litre of WORKING strength developer solution.

It took a bit of experimenting, but I finally managed to get a good range of tones and contrast, whilst used 'normally', the papers image was very grey all over the print AND the margins, which become white once I had worked out the Benzo amount needed.

Terry S

tezzasmall said:

I had to add about 15 ml to a litre of WORKING strength developer

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That's probably what I usually end up putting in. I find benzo kills developer within a few hours, though. You can definitely put in too much. It can be good to add extra sodium carbonate solution to boost the alkalinity.

Don Heisz said:

That's probably what I usually end up putting in. I find benzo kills developer within a few hours, though. You can definitely put in too much. It can be good to add extra sodium carbonate solution to boost the alkalinity.

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Ah, thanks for that info Don. I didn't know either of those points, although I generally ditch the small amount of home mixed D72 that I make regularly, after about a two hour printing session.

I'll try adding some sodium carbonate, which I use regularly, especially when using slightly older papers, as I find that it gives the deep greys a bit of a push into becoming lovely tones of black.

Terry S