ORWO 5166/Agfa CN17 details

srs5694 · Jul 8, 2008

Hi,

On a lark, I recently purchased some out-of-date Svema CND64 color negative film (expiration date 1992), just to play with it. I'm obviously not expecting great results, but I'd like to have a stab at processing it as color film. Some Googling suggests that this film was designed to be processed in ORWO process 5166, which Googling again suggests is identical to Agfa CN17. I found (there was a url link here which no longer exists) with a developer formula; however, I don't see process times or temperatures, and details on bleach and fixer are a bit vague. (Could I use modern C-41 bleach and fixer, albeit at lower-than-C41 temperature?) Does anybody have further details on this process?

Also, does anybody have a source of supply for small quantities of CD-1? (I'm in the US, so I'd want a US supplier.) And what's the A901 referenced in the formula?

If all else fails, I'll have a go at developing the film in NCF-41, which is at least intended to be run at room temperature, although I've no idea if it would develop an image, much less one with colors even as good as I'd get with 16-year-past-date film in the proper developer.

Thanks for any further details that anybody can provide on this.

Ray Rogers · Jul 8, 2008

Don't know about that film, but the data for the ORWO process 5166 is given as:

CD 7-8 min @20 C. +/- .25
wash 15 min @12-15 C.
Bleach 5 min @19-21 C.
wash 5 min @12-15 C.
Fix 5 min @19-21 C.
Washing 15 min @12-15 C.
Wetting 30 sec @19-21 C.
Drying max. 40 C.

using:
Orwo CD 15 (C 15)
Orwocolor 55 Bleach (C 55)
Orwocolor 71 Fixing bath (C 71)

Hope you will get more info.
I might have more somewhere but I have a serious nose bleed at the moment and can no longer type
woops gotta go....

Domin · Jul 8, 2008

I do have detailed formulas for negative, reversal and paper orwo processes. I already promised an apuger to translate some into english. Right now I'm not at home and do not have the book here and can't check if I have the exactly 5166 but I think I do. Next week I should have time and access to the book.

I've never shoot any color svema but have some experience with old color orwo negs, slides and even positive print film. I've shoot and developed some in original process (there is a lab in Warsaw which does that) and c41 chem.

If I were to shoot that film I would overexpose it at least two stops. I think 3 wouldn't hurt. I would expect film to work but with low contrast or very low contrast. I've shoot color orwo that old from different sources and they all worked.

The film might or might not survive regular temperature c41. Last summer I've souped orwo UT18 in c41 in a spiral tank - emulsion swelled, but eventually I got a working negative. I've also tried and was successful in developing in c41 cd with temperature lowered to 25C for 8min. I don't remember exactly but original process runs somewhere in between 21C and 24C.

As for the colors that film quite surely didn't reproduce colors nearly as naturally as current negatives when fresh. I was raised in a country where pretty much everything had these colors: tv, books, magazines. You could tell a movie from "the west" just by its more natural or more saturated colors. So I wouldn't worry that bad developer would give color shifts.

srs5694 · Jul 8, 2008

Ray, thanks for posting the detailed times. That'll help a lot, I'm sure! Domin, I look forward to seeing your post with further formulas for bleach and fixer (and for developer, if it differs from what's in the earlier APUG thread).

Now I just need to find some CD-1. Any suggestions? Neither the Formulary nor Art Craft lists it, and a Web search isn't turning up much -- or rather, it's getting lots of hits on scientific papers, patents, etc., but no obvious sellers of small quantities of the stuff.

Ray Rogers · Jul 8, 2008

srs5694,

Glad I could help!
I should add that the development is given as being done with continous agitation...
and that the first wash is supposed to be very vigorous.

I don't know if I have any CD-1 now or not, but considering the amount of trouble this is going to be, and the fact that it is outdated film, and that you are not expecting to get fresh top quality results, it might be an idea to just experiment using the materials that you are able to locate easily... anything... cross processing, b/w, toners, spent c-41 material from a lab- just play around with it. I do not mean to discourage, but since you have little real hope of "normal" results anyway, I am just wonder if it is really necessary to process it the "right" way? Either case, good luck!

(I may have a source for several of the CDs -- if I come across it again I will let you know...)

Ray

Ray Rogers · Jul 8, 2008

Domin said:
I was raised in a country where pretty much everything had these colors: tv, books, magazines. You could tell a movie from "the west" just by its more natural or more saturated colors.

Interesting observation!

I am living in Japan and I can identify "western" movies just by their background music/sound effects... Japanese material is much less "rich".
This comes in handy for rapidly locating the "good" movies before the screen lights up!

Ray Rogers · Jul 8, 2008

BTW - srs5694

the A901 is treatment for hard water... you may not need it.
Use soft water.

Ray

srs5694 · Jul 8, 2008

Ray Rogers said:
I don't know if I have any CD-1 now or not, but considering the amount of trouble this is going to be, and the fact that it is outdated film, and that you are not expecting to get fresh top quality results, it might be an idea to just experiment using the materials that you are able to locate easily... anything... cross processing, b/w, toners, spent c-41 material from a lab- just play around with it. I do not mean to discourage, but since you have little real hope of "normal" results anyway, I am just wonder if it is really necessary to process it the "right" way? Either case, good luck!

I bought the film just to play with it, and I'm getting enough rolls (ten) so that I can try different things. I'd like one of those things to be the "correct" processing, but if I can't get the CD-1, I won't be crying myself to sleep over it. In that case, I'd probably split the first roll into two or three parts and try different things (room-temperature RA-4, NCF-41, maybe B&W). I may do this even if I can get the CD-1.

Interestingly, I found that CD-1 (under the name "DPD") is sometimes used in tests of pool chlorine levels, but the descriptions I've seen online for this don't go into details about how dilute the DPD is (it appears to come in liquid form, but I'm not positive of that), and sometimes it's the oxalate rather than the sulfate.

Photo Engineer · Jul 8, 2008

Use of the oxalate salt won't hurt. That is, as long as you use the right molar amount.

PE

srs5694 · Jul 8, 2008

Thanks for that bit of information, PE. I'll investigate the pool supply kits more; maybe the information I need is buried on a manufacturer's Web site somewhere....

Photo Engineer · Jul 8, 2008

There is an oxalate salt in the C41 and RA developers already. It is no problem.

I had some CD-1, but when I checked it was bad. Sorry. All I have now is about 20 g of CD-6.

PE

srs5694 · Jul 9, 2008

Another question: The process sequence outlined earlier by Ray specifies wetting as the final step. I assume that's a wetting agent like Kodak Photo Flo. Would there be any advantage to substituting C-41 stabilizer (the sort with formaldehyde)? Would that help improve image stability, or would that have no effect on this sort of film?

Oh, and in case anybody comes across this thread in the future and is looking for the same, I found three US suppliers of small quantities of CD-1. See (there was a url link here which no longer exists) for details -- but check for updates, since I've not yet received the product I ordered.

Photo Engineer · Jul 9, 2008

Using a stabilzer with formalin depends on the types of couplers used at the time. With a given set of couplers in the absence of formalin, fading is rapid and a deep yellow stain is formed.

Make sure too that the bleach is right for the film. Some films require a ferricyanide - bromide bleach and others require Ferric EDTA. This makes a big difference.

PE

srs5694 · Jul 9, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
Using a stabilzer with formalin depends on the types of couplers used at the time. With a given set of couplers in the absence of formalin, fading is rapid and a deep yellow stain is formed.

Well, I've run into no reference to a formalin stabilizer, so it appears none is required. Would using one hurt, though? I'd rather err on the side of caution, but I don't know which side that is!

Make sure too that the bleach is right for the film. Some films require a ferricyanide - bromide bleach and others require Ferric EDTA. This makes a big difference.

In another forum, somebody's posted the complete set of official formulas for the Svema film in question. (I'll post them to the chemistry section once I've gotten the film and tested it all.) Here's the bleach:

K3(Fe(CN)6) [potassium ferricyanide] - 30g
KBr [potassium bromide] - 15g
K2HPO4 (Dipotassium phosphate) - 17g

... and the fixer, FWIW:

Sodium thiosulfate*5H2O - 200g
Sodium sulfite - 5g
Na2S2O5 [sodium metabisulfite] - 2g

I believe these are all to make up one liter. The developer formula is like the one posted in another APUG thread, but a little more dilute. There's also a "post-developer" solution of 0.2% sodium metabisulfite.

I don't happen to have any dipotassium phosphate, but at least the Formulary carries it. Is that likely to be vital? Could something else be substituted? I'll buy some if necessary, but if it's not necessary, I prefer to have one less bottle in my darkroom....

Photo Engineer · Jul 9, 2008

The bleach formula is right, and any phosphate salt could be used as long as the pH is correct. That is what it is there for. Since I have no idea OTOMH what the pH is, I'm not sure what to suggest. As for stabilzer, if formalin is not needed then having it or not having it is irrelevant. If needed, the need is critical.

HOWEVER, I stress again a point I made long ago. Formalin is used as a film preservative as well. Color films are particularly in need of a preservative, as silver is a preservative in B&W film, and there is none in color film after it is processed.

Both formalin and silver inhibit bacterial and mold growth.

PE

srs5694 · Jul 9, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
The bleach formula is right, and any phosphate salt could be used as long as the pH is correct. That is what it is there for. Since I have no idea OTOMH what the pH is, I'm not sure what to suggest.

OK, thanks. I'm afraid I wasn't told the target pH, so I'll probably play it safe, buy some dipotassium phosphate, and go with the official formula. I'll just check my inventory of other chemicals to see if it'd make sense to order anything else at the same time....

As for stabilzer, if formalin is not needed then having it or not having it is irrelevant. If needed, the need is critical.

HOWEVER, I stress again a point I made long ago. Formalin is used as a film preservative as well. Color films are particularly in need of a preservative, as silver is a preservative in B&W film, and there is none in color film after it is processed.

Both formalin and silver inhibit bacterial and mold growth.

I read this to mean that the formalin won't help with dye stability (assuming the lack of any formalin in any formula I've gotten is correct), but it may help prevent the growth of mold and bacteria on the film. In this case I'll use the Kodak C-41 stabilizer as protection against mold.

Thanks for all your help on this; it's useful to have these gaps filled in!

narigas2006 · Jul 24, 2008

I have developed svema MP film with normal c41 chem, no problems and it looks very cool.

srs5694 · Aug 22, 2008

An update and problem: My CD-1 supplier has had the CD-1 on back-order for over a month, so I decided to give it a go with CD-4 instead of CD-1. I doubled the amount of developer in the formula but otherwise mixed the developer as per the instructions I've got. Unfortunately, I also forgot the dipotassium phosphate in the bleach (full formula in post #14). The result of processing my Svema CND64 film was a completely blank roll (well, half-roll, since I cut it in half; see below). I was a bit surprised to notice that the processing instructions I received called for two fix steps: One before the bleach and one after. I'd have thought that was an error, but the two fix steps had different times, so I followed the procedure. (In short, it was develop/post-develop (sodium metabisulfite bath)/fixer/rinse/bleach/rinse/fixer/wash.)

For the second half of the roll, I processed it in stock NCF-41 with Kodak Flexicolor bleach and fixer, just as if it were normal C-41 film, but with an 8-minute rinse between developer and bleach. (I chose NCF-41 rather than a more conventional C-41 simply because NCF-41 is supposed to be used at room temperature and I didn't want to stress the emulsion with a 100F development or guess at the development time at a lower temperature.) This produced a nearly blank half-roll; there are very faint images visible on the negatives. I can't tell from an "eyeball" inspection if the images are color or if they're the remnants of silver images that didn't get completely bleached away. When the film is dry I'll try scanning to see if the scanner pulls color out of these images.

Could my bleach compounding error have caused the bleach to completely ruin the image? Should I try again with a different amount of CD-4, or with CD-3 rather than CD-4? Was the two fixer baths really an error? My inclination is to try another roll cut in half or thirds, with part done in a B&W developer and another part or parts varying something else to try to get this to work. I'd appreciate any suggestions for what to try. Thanks.

Photo Engineer · Aug 22, 2008

The bleach should not totally ruin the color image IMHO. If there is no color image, either the first developer fogged the film, the reversal was bad, or the color developer was ineffective.

PE

srs5694 · Aug 22, 2008

This was a negative film with negative processing, not a reversal film. The film base is about as dark as unexposed and normally processed C-41, although the color is different. Thus, I don't think the image was obscured by fogging.

The film's not quite dry yet, so I have no scans of the very faint images that survived the processing of the second half of the roll.

srs5694 · Aug 23, 2008

I'm scanning the negatives now. My scanner is pulling out far more detail than I can make out with my naked eye (or even with a loupe), but the results are still pretty awful. The image, such as it is, is in color, so the CD4-based developers have done something. Contrary to what I wrote above, there are images on the first half of the roll (developed with the Svema developer formula but with CD4 instead of CD1); they're invisible to the naked eye, but my scanner is miraculously pulling very poor images off the film. The NCF-41 half seems better (or perhaps I should say less awful) than the Svema developer half. Perhaps the film's age (16 years past date) is such that the dyes have just deteriorated past the point of producing anything more than ghosts of images. If so, maybe I'll be able to at least use the film as a B&W film.

PE, do you think there's any point in trying this with CD-3 rather than CD-4?

Photo Engineer · Aug 23, 2008

CD-4 is more active. So, you have a better chance with CD-4 than CD-3.

PE

srs5694 · Aug 23, 2008

Then I think it's unlikely I'll get much out of this film. FWIW, I put up the best frame from the roll on Flickr.

Photo Engineer · Aug 23, 2008

Looks like overdevelopment in the first developer.

PE

srs5694 · Aug 23, 2008

Once again, PE, there's just one developer. You may be confused because I said I cut the roll in half and developed each half a different way, so I mentioned two developers, but each half of the roll was developed once, resulting in negatives. The shot I posted was developed in NCF-41, which worked better (or perhaps I should say "less badly") than the modified Svema developer I also tried. There's considerable fog (and/or the base color is unusually dark) and the image is very faint above that fog.

ORWO 5166/Agfa CN17 details

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