Orthochromaric film and landscapes - skies/clouds

Jimi3 · Jul 13, 2023

I have a project going on that involves handling strips of unexposed 35mm film - this is much easier and faster with orthochromatic film under the appropriate safelight. I have everything I need, but now I’m wondering - since I’m shooting landscapes for this, how will skies render? Will there still be cloud detail, assuming proper conditions and exposure? Is there any filtration that will help, since obviously a red filter is a no-go?

ntenny · Jul 13, 2023

I’ve generally shot landscapes on ortho film with a yellow filter, and my experience has been reasonable with clouds rendering against a blue sky. The attached shot is Adox ORT25 with a yellow filter, developed in Diafine; this is a negative scan, but it prints well at grade 1.

-NT

Jimi3 · Jul 13, 2023

Looks great! Guess I’ll pick up a yellow filter- does it matter much which? Looks like B&H mostly has Tiffens in stock in the size I need. There’s a #12 and a #15 (deep yellow).

ntenny · Jul 13, 2023

This filter, if I remember right, was an off-brand “yellow” filter; it looks about the same as a Hoya K2. Not sure what the Tiffen equivalent is.

-NT

awty · Jul 13, 2023

You should try yellow, orange and red, to see what you like. Red filter will work with ortho film.
Also try no filter.
A lot depends on the lens coating, you may not need a filter at all.

pentaxuser · Jul 13, 2023

awty said:
Red filter will work with ortho film.

I was always under the impression that a red filter was the one that didn't work with an ortho film

Any examples of negs with a red filter?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Jimi3 · Jul 13, 2023

pentaxuser said:
I was always under the impression that a red filter was the one that didn't work with an ortho film

Any examples of negs with a red filter?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Yeah, I was assuming red wouldn’t work, or at least yield really long exposures. Would be interested in learning otherwise.

markjwyatt · Jul 13, 2023

I would stick with a K2 or K3 Yellow filter. K2 is the most common and is also called a Yellow 8. K3 might be Yellow 12. Since ortho films are not sensitive to Red, I would not use a red filter (may have a 32x filter factor for instance...). See this post: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/new-ortho-120-film-from-foma.199377/post-2689897

This quote from the source I referenced in that post, is pretty clear (and yellow): "For orthochromatic work all filters which are not clear yellow should be disregarded".

awty · Jul 13, 2023

pentaxuser said:
I was always under the impression that a red filter was the one that didn't work with an ortho film

Any examples of negs with a red filter?

Thanks

pentaxuser

If you used a red safe light with a 60 watt bulb it will fog the film. It's using low light with a red filter that stops paper and film from fogging.
The effects are similar to panchromatic film. You get white clouds, dark sky and dark shadows......depending on light intensity, lens etc.

DREW WILEY · Jul 13, 2023

Green foliage will turn out lighter, but generally not as light as you might expect, since foliage also reflects a certain amount of red light too. Blue skies will darken in contrast to white clouds, depending on the depth of blue. Reddish bricks or sandstone will darken somewhat. A red filter, and to a lesser extent an orange one, will act more like neutral density rather than anything useful in this case.

For specifics, you should check the spectral sensitivity diagram for the exact ortho film you plan to use. But there aren't a lot of choices out there. Don't confuse this with an orthopanchromatic film like Fuji Acros, which is partially red sensitive.

Sirius Glass · Jul 13, 2023

awty said:
If you used a red safe light with a 60 watt bulb it will fog the film. It's using low light with a red filter that stops paper and film from fogging.
The effects are similar to panchromatic film. You get white clouds, dark sky and dark shadows......depending on light intensity, lens etc.

Typical safe light bulbs are 7.5 watts or 15 watts.

awty · Jul 14, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
Typical safe light bulbs are 7.5 watts or 15 watts.

Yes, if it were any more brighter the red safe light will leave some exposure on the film. Bright sun light will still give a big difference between highlights and shadows with a red filter much the same as red sensitive film.

Jimi3 · Jul 14, 2023

Well I’ve got a red filter laying around, so it won’t hurt to try it out for a few shots, but it sounds like yellow will be more practical. I’ll be using Ilford ortho 80, btw.

jonathanchli · Jul 14, 2023

Jimi3 said:
Well I’ve got a red filter laying around, so it won’t hurt to try it out for a few shots, but it sounds like yellow will be more practical. I’ll be using Ilford ortho 80, btw.

You definitely need to increase exposure with the red filter on.

Rollei Ortho 25 with red filter -

pentaxuser · Jul 14, 2023

Thanks for the video. Based on what the presenter said a key point seems to be that some ortho films such as Ilford ortho will not work at all and while one that does work is Rollei Ortho, it does so marginally and only by increasing exposure by 10 stops

What wasn't clear to me from the video was whether the sky is rendered any darker even at 10 stops compared to a sky exposed with a yellow filter

So in my summary: Yes, it is possible to use a red filter with at least one ortho film(Rollei) but definitely not possible with at least one other, namely Ilford and from a practical aspect it doesn't seem to be a practical method and may not even then give a better rendition than a yellow filter does

Is that a reasonable summary? If not please point out where my summary goes wrong

Thanks

pentaxuser

Sirius Glass · Jul 14, 2023

jonathanchli said:
You definitely need to increase exposure with the red filter on.

Rollei Ortho 25 with red filter -

pentaxuser said:
Thanks for the video. Based on what the presenter said a key point seems to be that some ortho films such as Ilford ortho will not work at all and while one that does work is Rollei Ortho, it does so marginally and only by increasing exposure by 10 stops

What wasn't clear to me from the video was whether the sky is rendered any darker even at 10 stops compared to a sky exposed with a yellow filter

So in my summary: Yes, it is possible to use a red filter with at least one ortho film(Rollei) but definitely not possible with at least one other, namely Ilford and from a practical aspect it doesn't seem to be a practical method and may not even then give a better rendition than a yellow filter does

Is that a reasonable summary? If not please point out where my summary goes wrong

Thanks

pentaxuser

And one can get infrared out of none infrared film if one over exposes enough. So one can get the fringes. So what?!? Why waste the effort when the right products are available?

DREW WILEY · Jul 14, 2023

Somebody is always going to try to see how many angels they can get to stand on the head of a pin, and then make a video about it. That's just the way it seems to work. Their time; their money; their nonsense.

Sirius Glass · Jul 14, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
And one can get infrared out of none infrared film if one over exposes enough. So one can get the fringes. So what?!? Why waste the effort when the right products are available?

DREW WILEY said:
Somebody is always going to try to see how many angels they can get to stand on the head of a pin, and then make a video about it. That's just the way it seems to work. Their time; their money; their nonsense.

When I worked at Kodak, it was told that the proper technical term is …

WOMBAT ==> Waste Of Money Brains And Time

Don_ih · Jul 14, 2023

Out of curiosity, I put some ortho 80 in a camera and exposed it through a red filter. It looks "normal" exposed at f3.5 for 12 seconds on a cloudy day. The negative would be printable, except I was holding the camera. So that was fun.

Alex Benjamin · Jul 14, 2023

Some foliage with Ilford Ortho Plus, yellow #8 filter. Grey rainy day, though, so can't help with the sky and clouds...

This is a scan, though, and contrast adjusted in Lightroom, so take it with a grain of salt.

Jimi3 · Jul 14, 2023

Don_ih said:
Out of curiosity, I put some ortho 80 in a camera and exposed it through a red filter. It looks "normal" exposed at f3.5 for 12 seconds on a cloudy day. The negative would be printable, except I was holding the camera. So that was fun.

Haha. Yeah, plus 10 stops? No thanks.

Rolleiflexible · Jul 14, 2023

I shoot ortho for some portraits, when I want to bring out the freckles. I know some swear by ortho for landscapes. I confess that I have yet to see a landscape where ortho improved the image. Can someone point me to work that will help me to understand its appeal for landscapes?

pentaxuser · Jul 15, 2023

Alex, its a nice picture that conveys the grey day well but can you say what a yellow filter has done in your picture that a non filtered picture would not have done

Thanks

pentaxuser

Alex Benjamin · Jul 15, 2023

pentaxuser said:
Alex, its a nice picture that conveys the grey day well but can you say what a yellow filter has done in your picture that a non filtered picture would not have done

Thanks

pentaxuser

I couldn't. I had just bought a couple of rolls of the film, and my experiment was to shoot with the yellow filter, which, actually, I almost always have on, no matter the film. I promised myself I would do another outing without filter, but haven't had time yet.

That said, I'm pretty sure that the effect was pretty much the same as on any other film, i.e., darkened shadows and added contrast. Of course, no question here of better separation between sky and clouds. What I'm not sure about is how the combination ortho + yellow filter affected the green color of the foliage. I was expecting that combination to produce very light green, but it was not the case. That said, it's possible the shot was slightly underexposed.

Should add that this was developed in Ilfotec HC. Developer is another important variable to take into account when judging these films, and I haven't experimented with any other.

By the way, I was inspired to try out the film with a yellow filter by this thread on the subject:

Ortho Film Filters

Really interested in trying out some Ortho Plus and did some research on filters. It seems like there isn't much out there on what color filters to use like there is for pan film. Anyone one of you gurus want to shed light on what the different color filters do.

www.photrio.com

pentaxuser · Jul 15, 2023

Rolleiflexible said:
I shoot ortho for some portraits, when I want to bring out the freckles. I know some swear by ortho for landscapes. I confess that I have yet to see a landscape where ortho improved the image. Can someone point me to work that will help me to understand its appeal for landscapes?

Sanders, have a look a this video by Steve O'Nions. It's landscapes in N Wales and it compares Ilford Ortho 80 and Delta 100. I found it interesting. All others are also welcome to look as well of course

pentaxuser

Orthochromaric film and landscapes - skies/clouds

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