Ortho negatives from colour slides?

[Bill Banks]

I want to produce some 5X4 negatives by enlarging 35mm colour slides on to Ilford Ortho Plus sheet film. The slides are landscapes, seascapes and architecture so not too many oranges and reds!

Has anyone tried this? In particular I was wondering what filtration I should use in the enlarger to obtain the best range of tones. Also I shall probably develop the film in D76 1:3 unless people here have any better suggestions.

Bill

 

[Robert Ley]

Why not use a panchromatic film such as TMax100 or FP-4, then you don't have to worry about the tones in the negative.

 

[Bob Carnie]

You will get better quality by contacting the slides rather than projecting to 4x5.
I did this in the past and I would use HC110 rather than D76. I cannot remember the correct dilution

You will need to do and exposure sweep at recommended development time to determine your density
and fine tune adjust your development time and agitation, to determine the correct contrast you are trying to achive for enlarging.

Contact internegs have always been historically better than projected.

 

[nicholai]

You will get better quality by contacting the slides rather than projecting to 4x5.
I did this in the past and I would use HC110 rather than D76. I cannot remember the correct dilution

You will need to do and exposure sweep at recommended development time to determine your density
and fine tune adjust your development time and agitation, to determine the correct contrast you are trying to achive for enlarging.

Contact internegs have always been historically better than projected.

And just how do you contact enlarge 35mm to 4x5"?

 

[Bob Carnie]

Think about it and you will figure out the answer.

And just how do you contact enlarge 35mm to 4x5"?

 

[nicholai]

Think about it and you will figure out the answer.

Sorry for not being clear, it was sarcastic. The original poster asked about enlarging to 4x5, and you advised a method not capable of that.

 

[grahamp]

Projecting a colour original onto ortho should only require the same filtration as the original scene done on ortho. Green, possibly. The enlarger lamp colour temperature may have some influence, but tests will determine that.

I assume that the 5x4 is the final size - for a contact print? Emulsion to emulsion contacting is the usual approach, and then enlarge, but I can see a few processes where going straight to a final larger negative might appeal.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Oh contrair mon amie

We always contacted 35mm film on 4x5 sheets and then cut the film out to the original size and then put the interneg into the 35mm neg holder for magnification.
This is the preferred method.
My suggestion was not to enlarge to 4x5 but rather do a contact interneg . This will indeed give the OP better results .

Sorry for not being clear, it was sarcastic. The original poster asked about enlarging to 4x5, and you advised a method not capable of that.

 

[E76]

Oh contrair mon amie

We always contacted 35mm film on 4x5 sheets and then cut the film out to the original size and then put the interneg into the 35mm neg holder for magnification.
This is the preferred method.
My suggestion was not to enlarge to 4x5 but rather do a contact interneg . This will indeed give the OP better results .

That would be the superior method if your end goal was a enlarged B&W print, but I suspect the OP might be doing an alternative process that requires contact printing.

 

[Bill Banks]

Thanks, everybody. Much food for thought as always. I was intending to use the negatives for two purposes, the first to make cyanotypes and the second to sandwich with homemade 5X4 texture screens to create a distressed looking print. However I guess the second can be achieved by double exposure. I'll try both ways. The reason for choosing ortho was to enable development by inspection but if I don't get a satisfactory result I'll try panchro as suggested.

Bill

 

[Ian Grant]

My lab (unfortunately long closed) used to make all it's internegs by enlargement on to sheet film, however they had the best copying set up available, essentially a De Vere 5x4 head used as a light source with a copy camera above it. You do see these for sale sometimes.

I have to disagree with Bob here as this gave the highest possible quality internegs, it was also used to make 5x4 transparencies from 35mm Kodachromes etc.

Ian

 

[Bob Carnie]

I missed the part about the OP wanting to do contact prints, I am just addressing making negs from slides for enlargement.

Well Ian my labs did both ways , the easier way is to enlarge to a 4x5 sheet, the harder way is to contact, but IMHO and those of our clients were the contact internegs were vastly superior. one less optical projection if you want to think about that.
Making contact internegs is a pain for dust control and we had lots of little tricks for that. Worth the effort.


Now I still hope you send me those fix formulas , and when I get over there I am still welcome for a spot of tea eh.

My lab (unfortunately long closed) used to make all it's internegs by enlargement on to sheet film, however they had the best copying set up available, essentially a De Vere 5x4 head used as a light source with a copy camera above it. You do see these for sale sometimes.

I have to disagree with Bob here as this gave the highest possible quality internegs, it was also used to make 5x4 transparencies from 35mm Kodachromes etc.

Ian

 

[premortho]

I don't think you will have any trouble using Ortho film...just filter to get the greens where you want them. While I like the contact interneg process, I'd try the enlargement process first to see if it works good enough for you. My only problem with Ilford's sheet film in ortho is where do you get it?

 

[cliveh]

For pos/neg or neg/pos, I would always contact print and then make the final neg or pos by projection.

 

[voceumana]

Using ortho film, the red colors will come out very dark. I did this sort of thing back in the 1960's using Kodak's Gravure Copy Film (an ortho slow-speed emulsion). It works fine by projection. Contact printing will work, too. I did it for an enlarged negative for B&W photo christmas cards.

I might have used Dektol developer. For a negative that will be contract printed, developer isn't so critical as getting your exposure and contrast right. If you plan to enlarge, then developer will matter more (because grain structure will matter more).

Slow speed film is useful for this sort of thing, so if you go for panchromatic film, Efke 25 might be advisable because of its slow speed.

Charlie Strack

 

[DREW WILEY]

First of all you turn your easel 90 degrees so it can accept 4x5 film instead of 5x4 (which I've never
seen - perhaps it has something to do with which side of the Greenwich Meridian you're on) - but
seriously ... To do high-quality work you need an actual vacuum filmholder on the baseboard and a
lens suitable for duplicating. I use Apo-Nikkors rather than general enlarging lenses for this purpose.
Everything must be exceptionally precise, and your light source should be quite even. Choice of film
can be any number of things, but if you choose ortho it not a lot different than shooting ortho outside, except that it will be slower under a tungsten light source and be slightly skewed unless you
balance your colorhead to a cooler Kelvin temp resembling daylight. Takes a little practice, but in principle this is pretty simple conceptually.

 

[Bill Banks]

Lots more advice! Many thanks. Premortho - Ilford Ortho is available in the UK from Silverprint.

Bill