Originality or Quality?

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There have been quite a few threads on the subject of originality in art lately, and it is quite common in other forms of art to focus on originality. One comment that I've been thinking about went something to effect of, "Your work is technically very good and shows a strong connection to early to mid 20th century photographers of the Group f/64 type, but this connection makes it highly derivative." Is derivative a bad thing? How can what we do not be derived in any way from the past?

In my opinion it is important for a work to be technically excellent, in addition to original, for it to be a "good" work of art. This opens many doors of uncertainty regarding technical quality. With photography, is sharpness a sign of technical quality? Not necessarily, many beautiful and emotionally impactful photographs are not in sharp focus. Composition? I think most would agree that good composition is critical, but how do you define it short of "I know it when I see it"? With representational art composition is fairly easy to judge but I struggle when it comes to highly abstract work such as Jackson Pollock. Archival stability may also be a consideration, but sometimes it is the instability that is a part of the art. I recall hearing of a photography exhibit in which the photographs were intentionally fixed poorly and the degradation of the image was an integral part of the art.

Another problem is just how original is it necessary to be in order to be called original? Is possible to make an original work involving fruit, since there have been countless works of art involving fruit? People and the natural world have been a part of art since pre-historic antiquity, can any work involving them be considered truly original? One could even break it down to the medium or technique, and say that all works involving currently existing media or techniques are derivatives of the first. Would it matter to you if a work was undeniably original but had no other redeeming or evocative qualities? Could you still call it art? I'm thinking of the the "Definition of Art" animation in which the first response was along the lines of, "Art is anything anyone does that evokes an emotional response from someone, even animals."

There are a lot of questions in this post, but my most basic question are how important do you consider originality in your photography, or art in general? Beyond that, how original do you have to be to be original, and how does the quality of the work impact originality?

FWIW, the simple version of my own current view is that I would rather produce excellent photography in a derivative manner, but with a distinct sense of "me" about them rather than create poor work in which I do not get a sense of myself that came about as a result of trying to be original, or may actually be original. But in the end that statement only raises more questions. :rolleyes:

- Justin
 

Ed Sukach

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It will be interesting to read the responses here.

As for me ... I really don't worry about "originality". I don't intentionallly copy the works of others ... but with an average "pre-conscious" (wild guess!) at work, certain elements from others works MAY be there.

My "creative process"? ... more or less a collection of Freudian "Pensees" -- "voiceless thoughts". I try to avoid analyzing - at least extensive over-analyzing, and ... and.... just "DO IT".

Once in a while I get a good image. Uh, yeh... defined as "working for me".. That happens frequently enough to make it all worth while.
 

frank

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Sounds to me like the critic who was commenting on your work was just looking for a way to keep you down and for him to appear superior. A lot af art criticism is pure bs.
 

Chuck_P

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As for me, I concentrate on the quality of my photography mostly because I believe it central to any presentation of photographic art, I want it to be a technical achievement on my part as well, I want it to be what was in my mind before I exosed the film, regardless of the subject matter.

The originality part will just have to come as it comes. I sometimes see photographs where it seems to me that someone is striving to be so original and the whole concept comes across as, well, not good. But that's just my take on it.
 
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Just to point out, it wasn't a comment on my own work, it was another APUGers. Mine has a little ways to go before I would call it derivative of AA or EW :tongue:
 

erikg

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I think that it sounds like your critic was seeing too much Ansel or Weston in your work and not enough Justin. Maybe he wasn't looking hard enough, and it certainly is common for critics to use classification as a substitute for actual insight and analysis. You say you want to produce work with a distinct sense of yourself. I would say that that is a good track to be on and to keep working at it. Perhaps it isn't as obvious as you might think. I would encourage you to get more opinions. I don't think one can be successful or satisfied "trying" to be original. If you pursue your own voice, you will be original enough. Monet, who was a pretty sharp businessman about his art, believed that he should move one or two steps forward with each new body of work, as opposed to moving ten or twenty steps. But by that point he had pretty firmly established his own voice with his audience.
 

Michel Hardy-Vallée

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Originality in art was "invented" recently, and matters only within certain cultural norms.

Middle-Age painters were not trying to be original, they were trying to be faithful to their tradition. You could try to vary the approach depending on the subject, but to be astonishingly different was not a virtue.

There are many stories in art history regarding the source of the "originality as an end" attitude in Western art. Some say it started at the Renaissance, with successful and idiosyncratic artists such as Michel-Ange and Da Vinci, others say it comes a little later with the Enlightenment and the subsequent Industrial Revolution that created an autonomous market for art.

In French, we mock disingenuous originality with the expression épater le bourgeois, to startle the middle-class. In other words, the middle class is a blind consumer of originality because its whole point in life is to be different from the vile proletariat or the turgid aristocracy...

But Marxist considerations aside, there is some hypocrisy to the dictatorship of originality.

Let's face it, how many more series of deadpan people do we need to see being hailed as the second coming of a "fresh outlook on life" ?

Many contemporary artists praised for their originality (e.g. Alec Soth...) are also extremely derivative of the currents in which they navigate. Soth could not exist without Shore and Eggleston before him, and these two do could not exist without Walker Evans, who himself does not exist without Eugène Atget, who...

I don't mind people working "in the tradition of...", but it's impossible to do so with a straight face in our current culture because you will always end up looking derivative. "Derivative" is a concept that only makes sense when there is a pretension to originality; the f64 group pretended to be original, so emulating them is inevitably derivative. And given that everybody is trying to be original, if you do stuff that vaguely looks like someone else's, you better be ready to invent a claim to originality for fear of looking too derivative.

Miniature painting in the Middle Ages never pretended to be original, so calling "derivative" the work of any of the nameless monks who illustrated countless Bible manuscripts is egregious.

The obsession with épater le bourgeois has killed the possibility of a tradition. Alec Soth does very good work, but he does so in a tradition of late 20th century deadpan colour photography. Nothing wrong with that. But when you read criticism about his work, it's as if he's a whole unique movement by himself. And maybe that's where the problem is: if we must have originality to the extreme, then there is no such thing as school, a movement, only individuals. Individuals are never that different from each other, but we like to believe so because we like to believe in the Artist-Hero, the Lone Ranger who liberates Art from the clutches of boredom.

"Working in the tradition of..." is a qualifier left for the amateur, the weekend artist, or the so-called retired accountants that are supposedly swarming APUG (no they're not!). It's a way of creating a two-tier system of "real" artists who are doing work as derivative as the amateurs, but who can do so in total impunity with the help of critics.

I'm exaggerating, but there's a fine line between crappy-artist and crappy-amateur, often drawn in critical discourse.
 
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MurrayMinchin

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Hey! That biting critique sounds like one I got a little while ago;

I am sure you will agree that your work is clearly influenced by the LF greats of the past and does not evidence a strong personal style. You have of course not created this work with any commercial intention, but I have no doubt you will have gathered from APUG discussions and elsewhere that this type of work is in very little demand, not least because of the collossal oversupply of material. Your work is excellent - and yet still that of a untrained amateur with little or no reputation or achievement.

You really have to look at the person who gives the critique, and weigh their capacity to critique your work in the first place. In the case of the person who made the comment above, well, his interpretation of my photographs was obscured by the swirling mists of his dizzyingly narcissistic vantage point. Water off a ducks back :D

Justin Silber said:
I would rather produce excellent photography in a derivative manner, but with a distinct sense of "me" about them rather than create poor work in which I do not get a sense of myself that came about as a result of trying to be original, or may actually be original.

I'm going to put that with my collection of quotes on my darkroom door!

Murray
 

bjorke

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I am sure you will agree that your work is clearly influenced by the LF greats of the past and does not evidence a strong personal style. You have of course not created this work with any commercial intention, but I have no doubt you will have gathered from APUG discussions and elsewhere that this type of work is in very little demand, not least because of the collossal oversupply of material. Your work is excellent - and yet still that of a untrained amateur with little or no reputation or achievement.
This is exactly the attitude that a gallery SALES person should have, unless the gallery caters to the "looks nice over the sofa" crowd, in which case then they will care a lot about high technical polish combined with rapid production and low production costs.

Artists depend on gallerists to handle "all that business crap" and then whine when gallerists act like businesspeople.

*sigh*
 

Michael A. Smith

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Picasso, certainly an "original" artist, said, "The artist who tries to be original only deceives himself. If he achieves anything at all it will only be an imitation of what he likes."

I dealt with the question of originality(among other things) in "On Teaching Photography," an article I wrote back in 1976 for the Society for Photographic Education journal Exposure. It can be found here: http://www.michaelandpaula.com/mp/onteachphoto.html
 

jd callow

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Being original or not in your creative process is not germane unless it is something you strive toward or against. It might be important to those viewing and if your goal is to please these folks then it is applicable to consider originality when going about your business. It can be said that, depending upon the length of your view, all work done within a genre or movement is derivative. Originality can be as much about message as literal content. Often it is the human condition, emotions, grand and or common themes and tales that are portrayed in art. The depiction of these subjects can differ greatly (boatloads of originality) or slightly (not much originality) and still be important because the message is successful, but the message itself (arguably the meat) is plagiaristic. As I have said before and alluded to in the first couple sentences, there is art in the creation and art in the viewing. As a creator you might put more emphasis on what is important to you and less on how it is viewed. I do think that art as a creative process is far more fulfilling when it is not mimicking what you've seen, but making real what you think, feel or just doing the dance as the music comes to you (hmm sorry). Afterwards, the viewing will take care of its self.
 

hec

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IMHO:
importance of originality?
originality should not be a starting point (or an end in itself) for any real artist, if it happens at all good, there are "happy accidents".

For me, the commitment of an artist is at all costs being honest and creating works true to himself/herself. By this I do not disregard commercial work, there are great works of art done on assignment throughout history and will continue to be.


how original do you have to be, to be original?
- how radical in this day and age??? for shinny stars any superficial gimmick will do, we'll forget them by next year. :rolleyes:


does the quality of the work impact originality?
- I do not think they relate at all. Nevertheless to transcend it must be technically excellent, that is using the craft to express, not show off.
 

removed account4

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justin

the more you do what you want to do
the better your work will be.
you will break out of the confines you set for yourself
when you feel comfortable with what you make.

john
 
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MurrayMinchin

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[edited by poster request, I think--d.g.]

Michael A. Smith said:
Picasso, certainly an "original" artist...

One only has to see his early figure drawings to realize what an amazing artist he was, but he stole blatantly from West African masks.

Murray
 
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phenix

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First of all, technical quality and originality are not opposed. You don’t have to give up one in order to get the other. Moreover, except for the case of original techniques, originality concerns the content of the work, while the technical quality concerns the form. Of course, they are related: they have to be consistent to each other, but they don’t exclude each other. As for the technical originality, this is in my opinion the “cheapest” and the weakest kind of originality. Cheapest because concerns only the form, and weakest because it is the less defendable (the easiest to be reproduced by others).

Secondly, originality is a paradox: if you intentional look for it, you lose any chance to reach it. Originality cannot be a goal. Originality means freedom, and if you set it as a goal you lose your freedom, and the originality with it. Originality is always an output, never an input. Don’t look for it, and she will eventually find you.

Finally, a trick to help her to reach to you: instead of looking for originality, look for the truth, for authenticity. This trick always works, just take your time! Why does it always work? Because truth or authenticity does not exist objectively, so you have to find what is truth or authentic for you. And when you’ll find it, you’ll find originality. As simple as that (in theory).
 
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Nick Zentena

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Isn't a photocopier pretty perfect?

Techincal skill means being able to do what you want or at least intend to. A monkey can throw paint at a wall. But they don't intend anything from it. I can blow an exposure badly. It's a mistake. An artist can for arts sake decide to screw up an exposure. The intentional screw up is techincally right and not a screw up. Even if the light meter claims it is.
 

eddym

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Finally, a trick to help her to reach to you: instead of looking for originality, look for the truth, for authenticity. This trick always works, just take your time! Why does it always work? Because truth or authenticity does not exist objectively, so you have to find what is truth or authentic for you. And when you’ll find it, you’ll find originality. As simple as that (in theory).

Well said. I would not call the search for authenticity a "trick," but otherwise I agree with you completely.
 

wfe

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the more you do what you want to do
the better your work will be.
you will break out of the confines you set for yourself
when you feel comfortable with what you make.
john

I agree with John on this one. I don't worry about originality or critiques, I just try to make the pictures that I want to make that inspire me. Sure it's great when others like your work but I don't believe that it should be a controlling factor.

Cheers,
Bill
 

jpeets

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In French, we mock disingenuous originality with the expression épater le bourgeois, to startle the middle-class. In other words, the middle class is a blind consumer of originality because its whole point in life is to be different from the vile proletariat or the turgid aristocracy...

I love it!

I see so much in contemporary art and intellectual life that is merely contrarian or "clever", without substance or depth. Yet, it is attention-getting, and often displaces the more thoughtful or subtle. I do believe that there is a loss of respect for the traditions in photography, and for craftsmanship. In fact, there is a strong anti-craftsmanship movement: for example, practitioners of wet-plate photographers who, intentionally or not, produce images with major flaws (ie. streaks, bubbles, etc.). Intentionally distressing images falls into the same category: I see it primarily as a way to claim originality, whereas it does not enhance the final image in my eyes.

I will duck now .....:D
 

removed account4

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SNIP

I do believe that there is a loss of respect for the traditions in photography, and for craftsmanship. In fact, there is a strong anti-craftsmanship movement: for example, practitioners of wet-plate photographers who, intentionally or not, produce images with major flaws (ie. streaks, bubbles, etc.). Intentionally distressing images falls into the same category: I see it primarily as a way to claim originality, whereas it does not enhance the final image in my eyes.

not everything in this world is perfect.
sometimes there is beauty in the imperfect
(whether on purpose or by accident).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi
 
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Michel Hardy-Vallée

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frank

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Even our very own Romantic forebears had their aesthetic of imperfection by the melancholic devotion they gave to ruins and antiquities.

I don't understand this statement. The Romans didn't build ruins.
 

arigram

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SNIP

not everything in this world is perfect.
sometimes there is beauty in the imperfect
(whether on purpose or by accident).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi

Ah, yes, the beautiful melancholy of the zen wabi sabi.
Maybe it would be shocking to also claim the ancient Greek
artists in reveling the imperfect, but being a subtle quality of perfection.
Whereas the japanese wabi sabi masterpiece looks imperfect and
is in fact perfect, the Greeks liked things that looked perfect but
were in fact flawed. Balance in imbalance.

Regarding quality and originality, they are in the eye of the beholder,
very subjective, often requiring the lack of knowledge, experience
and sensitivity to be manifested by the audience. Such characteristics
are born of comparison and approached mathematically. In the modern
world they are but characteristics of a product, a commodity sold and
bought in the market: originality and quality influences its value.

To me, an artist should only be concerned about his/her creativity
and exploration of things internal and external and leave such judgments to the audience.
 
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