Original D-72/Dektol?

[Keith Tapscott.]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/reallystrangegirl/2157109988/

 

[PHOTOTONE]

It could be, but the can doesn't say what "original formulas" it is a product of. Bear in mind that D-72 as mixed by you at home, and commercial Dektol, while functioning the same, are NOT the same identical product. The Commercial product Dektol probably has some agents incorporated to compensate for variable water quality so it can work with all municipal water supplies, whereas many of us who mix up our own "scratch" made developers from published formulas use distilled water, thus taking the water quality issue out of the mix. I have never found a commercial developer powder that wouldn't work just fine with tap water.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

Commercial product Dektol probably has some agents incorporated to compensate for variable water quality.

I used to have trouble with D-72 throwing a white precipitate when mixed with tap water. A 1/4 tsp/Quart (1gm/l) of EDTA takes care of that and the resulting D-72 stays clear to the last drop.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/reallystrangegirl/2157109988/

That seems to be a very early version of "M-Q Universal Developer" - it was available until the early 60's. In its most popular form it came in tubes of tablets and you simply dissolved one tablet to make 8oz of developer. Later it came in match-book style packets with two foil pouches of powder stapled inside - these still appear on ebay, usually as part of a Kodak ABC home photography kit. M-Q was part of the ubiquitous Tri-Chem package that supplied enough developer, stop and fix to process a roll of film and make a dozen or so 3 1/2 x 4 1/2" contact prints.

It was sold for developing both film and paper and was probably less energetic than Dektol. I remember using it as a child and I don't remember the grain being Dektol-huge.

M-Q developer was on the market at the same time as Dektol. It's niche was home developing: A Tri-Chem pack, a pack of Velox paper and a roll of 112-sized Verichrome, all available at the corner store. Simpler days.

 

[Anscojohn]

[ The Commercial product Dektol probably has some agents incorporated to compensate for variable water quality
******
Doubtless Photo Engineer can be definitive; but obvious the packaged developers have water softeners-sequestering agents to keep the crud to a minimum. But there is an additional element which must obtain with packaged developers, it seems to me. We all know that with, say D-72, it's "mix until dissolved before adding the next......" The chemicals in packaged powdered Dektol must have some kind of "stuff" attached to each element so that they dissolve in the proper order, dontcha think?

I have never found a commercial developer powder that wouldn't work just fine with tap water.[/QUOTE]
******
When I lived in Cincinnati, Ohio, the Ohio River Punch which passed as tap water inevitably brought about a whitish precipitate in my packaged D-76. I just filtered it out.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Dektol has Quadrofos in it to chelate out metals in hard water. It is also made by a method that protects the chemistry in the package. Otherwise the formual for D-72 and Dektol are the same.

As for early MQ developers such as Kodak Universal MQ. IDK if they were exactly the same.

PE

 

[Anscojohn]

Dektol has Quadrofos in it to chelate out metals in hard water. It is also made by a method that protects the chemistry in the package. Otherwise the formual for D-72 and Dektol are the same.

*****
So you mean I have been wasting time and energy doing my D72 and for each individual component "mixing until dissolved...":confused:

 

[Photo Engineer]

D-72 = Dektol. Kodak has said it and I have said it over and over.

PE

 

[nworth]

The package is obviously very old, but we need to put a date on it and on the introduction of D-72 before we can even guess as to whether they are the same. I'm sure Kodak had paper developers before D-72. We know about D-51 (an amidol developer - so not this stuff) and D-16 (and early motion picture positive developer that could be used for prints) which were early Kodak disclosures. I'm sure there were many others. A clue is the prominent mention on the box that this is an M-Q developer, hinting that this was something new and possibly uncommon when the package was made. That says it may be from the late 1910s or early 1920s. The packaging in double glass ampoules was used through the 1940s, but I don't know when it began.

 

[nworth]

Dektol has Quadrofos in it to chelate out metals in hard water. It is also made by a method that protects the chemistry in the package. Otherwise the formual for D-72 and Dektol are the same.

*****
So you mean I have been wasting time and energy doing my D72 and for each individual component "mixing until dissolved...":confused:

No. The packaged products also treat the metol in a way that prevents it from forming an insolulble adduct with sulfite. You need to at least fully dissolve the metol before adding the other ingredients.

 

[Anscojohn]

No. The packaged products also treat the metol in a way that prevents it from forming an insolulble adduct with sulfite.
******
That's what I was getting at. So EK does something to the metol too; as well as adding agents to chelate and sequester]the bad stuff in hard water; and to protect the powders in the packaging.

 

[Ray Rogers]

No. The packaged products also treat the metol in a way that prevents it from forming an insolulble adduct with sulfite.

???

"treatment" ?

For example?

 

[Ian Grant]

It's highly unlikely that the Developer in the post linked to is D-72/Dektol.

Old Kodak data books show D-72 as primarily a film & plate developer, definitely not a specific developer for Velox papers, on the other hand D-158 is designed for Velox and Kodak publications state as an alternative use "Velox" Developing powder.

Ian

 

[Photo Engineer]

Yes, Velox was an early high chloride slow paper. As such, the sulfite and bromide content of the developer had to be very low to prevent excessive speed loss. So, Ian has a very valid point.

PE

 

[Keith Tapscott.]

Thanks to all who replied.

 

[athanasius80]

Well, Velox was invented in 1893 and was produced by Nepera. Kodak bought them out in 1899. I know that around 1900 there were a huge variety of developing agents being touted: Pyro, Metol, Ortol, "Hydrochinon," Eikonogon, and Rodinal! So who knows what formula that might have been. Its fun to guess though!

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

around 1900 there were a huge variety of developing agents being touted: Pyro, Metol, Ortol, "Hydrochinon," Eikonogon, and Rodinal

OK, so I google for 'Ortol', it sounds like a cool name, maybe I could write The Book of Ortol and start a fad and make some change. But what does Google throw my way but a list of the names that have been given to "3-(2-methylphenoxy)propane-1,2-diol" - noting that it has at one time been called Ortol. The trade names given to this whatever-it-is are amazing:

Anatensin, Anxine, Atensin, Avesyl, Avosyl, Avoxil, Avoxyl, BDH 312, BRN 2047373, Byk-m 1, component of Tolagesic, Cresodiol, Cresossidiolo, Cresossipropandiolo, Cresoxydiol, Cresoxypropanediol, Curaril, Curarythan, Curythan, Daserd, Daserol, Decontractil, Decontractyl, Diloxol, Dioloxal, Dioloxol, DivK1c_000076, EINECS 200-427-4, Findolar, Findolor, Glukresin, Glyceryl o-tolyl ether, Glykresin, Glyotol, Glytol, Halabar, KBio1_000076, KBio2_001882, KBio2_004450, KBio2_007018, KBio3_001856, KBioGR_001473, KBioSS_001882, Kinavosyl, Kresoxypropandiol, Lissenphan, Lissephen, Mc 2303, Mefenesina, Mefenesina [INN-Spanish], Mefensina, Memphenesin, Mephate, Mephedan, Mephelor, Mephenesin, Mephenesin [BAN:INN], Mephenesine, Mephenesine [INN-French], Mephenesinum [INN-Latin], Mephensin, Mepherol, Mephesin, Mephin, Mephosal, Mephson, Mervaldin, Mianesina, Miolisina, Moctynol, Myanesin, Myanil, Myanol, Myasin, Myastenin, Mycocuran, Myocaine, Myocuran, Myodetensin, Myodetensine, Myolax, Myolyseen, Myolysin, Myopan, Myopen, Myopna, Myosera, Myoserol, Myoten, Myoxane, Myoxyl, Nembusen, Nephelor, NINDS_000076, Noctynol, NSC 25234, NSC25234, NSC36140, NSC50788, NSC8134, o-Cresol glyceryl ether, o-Cresyl .alpha.-glyceryl ether, o-Cresyl alpha-glyceryl ether, o-Cresyl glycerol ether, o-Kresol-glycerinaether, o-Kresol-glycerinaether [German], Oranixon, Ortol, Prestwick0_000178, Prestwick1_000178, Prestwick_577, Prolax, Prolaxin, Proloxin, Relaxant, Relaxar, Relaxil, Relaxyl, Renarcol, Rex regulans, Rhex 'hobeino', Rhex regulans, RP 3602, Sansdolor, Saserol, Seconesinz, Sinan, Spartoloxin, Spartoloxyn, Spasmolyn, SPBio_001496, SPBio_001996, Spectrum2_001418, Spectrum3_000908, Spectrum4_001007, Spectrum_001402, SQ 1156, Stilalgin, Temian, Thioxidil, Thoxidil, Tokerol, Tolansin, Tolax, Tolbart, Tolcil, Tolhart, Tolofren, Tolosate, Toloxyn, Tolserol, Tolseron, Tolsil, Tolsin, Tolulexin, Tolulox, Tolydrin, Tolynol, Tolyspaz, Torulox, Walco-Nesin, Walconesin, Walko-Nesin, Xeral

Not to mention all the 'scientific' names that are supposed to describe the chemical, seems no one can decide just what this stuff is:

.alpha., .beta.-Dihydroxy-.gamma.-(2-methylphenoxy)propane, .alpha.-(o-Tolyl)glyceryl ether, 1, 2-Dihydroxy-3-(2-methylphenoxy)propane, 1,2-Dihydroxy-3-(2-methylphenoxy)propane, 1,2-Propanediol, 3- (2-methylphenoxy)-, 1,2-Propanediol, 3- (o-tolyloxy)-, 1,2-Propanediol, 3-(2-methylphenoxy)-, 1,2-PROPANEDIOL, 3-(o-TOLYLOXY)-, 1-o-Tolylglycerol ether, 1-Ortho-tolylglycerol ether, 3-(2-Methylphenoxy)-1,2-propanediol, 3-(2-Methylphenoxy)propane-1,2-diol, 3-(2-Tolyloxy)-1, 2-propanediol, 3-(2-Tolyloxy)-1,2-propanediol, 3-(o-Methylphenoxy)-1,2-propanediol, 3-(o-Tolyloxy)-1, 2-propanediol, 3-(o-Tolyloxy)propane-1,2-diol, 3-o-Toloxy-1,2-propanediol, 4-06-00-01952 (Beilstein Handbook Reference), 59-47-2, A 1141, Ageflex CGE, AIDS-017830, AIDS017830, alpha,beta-Dihydroxy-gamma-(2-methylphenoxy)propane, alpha-(o-Tolyl)glyceryl ether

But it seems the Book of Ortol (such as it is) has already been written in 1903 by the New York Camera Club. You need to scroll down a page ...

Hmpf ... further exploration finds Ortol used for detecting unboiled goat's milk in Gibraltar.

Good Got, the stuff that has been digitized and put on the 'net is amazing: Amatuer Work - Choice of a Developer (scroll down a bit for the text).

Time to stop this foolishness - it's bloody getting close to 1am.

 

[Ian Grant]

Well, Velox was invented in 1893 and was produced by Nepera. Kodak bought them out in 1899. I know that around 1900 there were a huge variety of developing agents being touted: Pyro, Metol, Ortol, "Hydrochinon," Eikonogon, and Rodinal! So who knows what formula that might have been. Its fun to guess though!

Well a huge clue as to the Formula is staring at you if you look at the image linked to at the start of the thread

It clearly states that it's Metol Quinol and made to the Nepera standard published formula, which is readily available in many older books as:

Hydroquinone 2 g
Sodium Sulphite (anhyd) 7 g
Sodium Carbonate (anhyd) 13g
Metol 0.5 g
Potassium Bromide 10% 40 drops
Water to 300 ml

Use undiluted, or 1:1 with Special Velox paper.

This was published by Eastman Kodak, Rochester, in 1905, the developer was also commercially available in powder form in glass tube, or as a liquid. The spelling of Sulphite was the correct UK English way, and they don't use Elon, Kodaks Trade name for Metol.

It differs from D72 Dektol, D52 Selectol, D158 and other Kodak developers because of it's high Carbonate level and low bromide. There are of course a large number of MQ developers and variations of the carbonate, bromide, MQ ratio can significantly alter the developers property.

Kodak published another MQ developer in 1905 which has the Metol, Hyroquinone & Sulphite in the same proportions as D72 but again the Carbonate level differs this time it was approx a third. These MQ developers are based on early European developers, the second formula doesn't hide the German origins with it's spelling - Hydrochinon (Hydroquinone). Metol was only discovered in 1891 and first used in combination with Hydroquinone in 1893. So perhaps the best place to find the roots of D72 are in the very early German and French MQ developers, the Lumiere Brothers did a lot of research on the MQ combination.

Ian