Oriental vc fb cold?

hansformat · Jul 9, 2013

All

I've really cut down my darkroom work in favor of digital printing and one key reason is the lack of a good cold tone fiber paper. However i just noticed that freestyle has Oriental which they claim is cold tone. Searches on the web and on this forum don't yield much info however.

Has anyone tried this paper? Is it good? Is the tone cold and with what developer?

Any info appreciated!

NB23 · Jul 10, 2013

That paper is absolutely amazing! I don't know to what extent it's cold, though. But the finish and the way it dries amazes me each and every time I use it. I can say it's my favorite paper.

David Allen · Jul 10, 2013

Plenty of papers can yield a cold tone.

Generally, the easiest way to achieve this is to use Dokumol at 1 + 6 and make sure that you develop for a minimum of 3 minutes.

As an example, combining this developer with Forte Polywarmtone yielded neutral to cold tones

Bests,

David
www.dsallen.de

hansformat · Jul 10, 2013

All

First off thanks for the info. Appreciated.

My experience seems to be a bit different than some of yours. For example i do not think you can make any paper look cold. For example, i tried doing that with Adox MCC. I used Moersch se6 cold/blue developer with finisher blue. Result? Neutral at best. Maybe even slightly warm. Note i am not criticizing the paper or the developer...both seem to me to be quite exceptional in fact and i was proud of the result...but the result was not cold or even cool.

Cool to me means slightly bluish rich blacks and greys. When compared visually vs neeutral the brown in neutral is obvious. Forte plygrade in Edwal Ultra black did this nicely. Ilford cooltone in its now discontinued cooltobe developer seemed to also get to this point from the screen images i've seen. Digitally using the Epson ABW (advanced black white) mode set to 'cool' certainly does this.

I fear this result may no longer be achievable in the traditional darkroom. All is not lost i do achieve it digitally with exceelent rrsults on the Baryta papers...but i like working in the darkroom. I guess the Oriental is my last hope.

zsas · Jul 10, 2013

I am a huge fan of cold tone printing. I find bromide paper (Slavich Unibrom) nice and cold rich blacks that tones well in gold toner (eg Kodak T-26). However I've never tried the Oriental VC FB Coldtone.

There is also Kentmere:
Bromide FB B&W Paper Grade #3 8 x 10" (100 Sheets) Glossy

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/603415-REG

Tom Kershaw · Jul 10, 2013

Hans,

I wouldn't place too much hope in the Oriental paper if the emulsion is the same as when I tried it 4 years ago. It wasn't cold as such. Perhaps our best hope is if Harman manufacture a cooltone fibre base paper at some point in the future. Kentmere Fineprint FB paper may be worth a try as well.

The other way to get cold tones is to gold tone a warm paper but this isn't an inexpensive process...

Tom

NB23 · Jul 10, 2013

Well, almost any RC paper is cold tone. But I can't stand RC papers.

ROL · Jul 10, 2013

hansformat said:
All

I've really cut down my darkroom work in favor of digital printing and one key reason is the lack of a good cold tone fiber paper. However i just noticed that freestyle has Oriental which they claim is cold tone. Searches on the web and on this forum don't yield much info however.

Has anyone tried this paper? Is it good? Is the tone cold and with what developer?

Any info appreciated!

I print almost entirely cold tone. I use roll Oriental VC fiber, selenium toned, to extend my editions into murals, from graded Slavich, Kentmere, and old Oriental sheets. Yes, it is tough to find true cold tone papers but this paper does the job for me, if inelegantly, since I must redetermine proper grade when completing an edition. The same cannot be said of the new graded Oriental, which I believe Freestyle no longer carries, and is a neutral–warm tone, brownish in color similar to Bergger papers. It hasn't toned to a cold tone, but for me, it works for some images better than a true cold tone. However, extending editions in size from these papers then becomes problematic as there presently is no complementary roll paper available. I don't know why the remainder of paper manufacturers figure that traditional printers only want to print warm.

FWIW (not much apparently), I was informed earlier this year that Freestyle was going to be importing Slavich papers under a different name by now. They are pretty much the only true cold tone graded papers currently available.

DREW WILEY · Jul 10, 2013

I'm getting superb rich cold tones using Kentmere Fineprint VC developed in amidol then mildly toned in GP1 (or similar) gold toner.

Roger Cole · Jul 10, 2013

Amidol and gold toner...how does it do with more common developers and selenium? Amidol is PITA with its staining and gold is $$$$.

hansformat · Jul 10, 2013

All

Very informative...i'll summarize...

- RC Papers - not really interested. These days if i'm going to spend time hand printing i want to see something special at the end...i'd rather print digitally on baryta than print rc in the darkroom

- Gold toning - i had thought of this option but as you point out the cost is very high...prohibitive in fact

- kentmere - this is interesting. Since it is no longer available at Freestyle i just assumed it had been discontinued...apparently not. Good news. Unfortunately it appears only to be available in grade 3. Thats a problem ... Contrast control is essential in my view so only one grade is a serious limitation.

- Slavich - same story - freestyle no longer has it so i thought it was no more ... Apparently not true. However, once again...only grade 3 available. Now this is the funny part - i had used this paper for a few pics several years ago and liked it...and forgot that i still have some in my fridge! So at least i could do a few images. I have grades 2-4. I agree btw - i was suprised at the quality which was quite nice and quite cold.

- Ilford cooltone fiber - yes it would be great if Ilford took this step. Great company that makes great products. I use some of their film and have used mg4...great quality and consistency but not cold enough for me. From a commercial perspective i guess ilford believes it won't be profitable to offer a fiber version along with their cooltone developer...but i have to wonder if that analysis still holds. It was probably done in an era of many cold tone competitors - Forte, Kentmere, Slavich, Luminous, etc - now all gone except for limited grade 3 only options. Ilford could literally have nearly 100 percent of this part of the market. Something to think about perhaps.

Once again thanks everyone. I'll keep watching...and in the meantime maybe finish off my Slavich stock...

zsas · Jul 10, 2013

I just bought Slavich grade 3 and 4 if I need a grade 2, there is always Legacy Pro Selectol Soft

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Legacy Pro Selectol Soft:
http://www.freestylephoto.biz/750710-LegacyPro-Select-Soft-Paper-Developer-to-Make-1-Gallon

More food for thought

Btw, gold chloride isn't as expensive as you'd think. 1g of gold chloride is something like $50 shipped, you can prob tone a lot of prints with that....though I don't know your "print throughput"

I mix it up after making the T-26 at the below:
http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/g23/g23.pdf

Bought the chems at Formulary...

Last, there are rumors of Ilford bringing back from the dead Cooltone Dev!
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

How's about askin' Simon for an update?

Tom Kershaw · Jul 11, 2013

I tried the Slavich paper a few years ago and found problems with the coating quality; however it may have been a bad batch.

Tom

Roger Cole · Jul 11, 2013

hansformat said:
All

Very informative...i'll summarize...

- RC Papers - not really interested. These days if i'm going to spend time hand printing i want to see something special at the end...i'd rather print digitally on baryta than print rc in the darkroom

- Gold toning - i had thought of this option but as you point out the cost is very high...prohibitive in fact

- kentmere - this is interesting. Since it is no longer available at Freestyle i just assumed it had been discontinued...apparently not. Good news. Unfortunately it appears only to be available in grade 3. Thats a problem ... Contrast control is essential in my view so only one grade is a serious limitation.

- Slavich - same story - freestyle no longer has it so i thought it was no more ... Apparently not true. However, once again...only grade 3 available. Now this is the funny part - i had used this paper for a few pics several years ago and liked it...and forgot that i still have some in my fridge! So at least i could do a few images. I have grades 2-4. I agree btw - i was suprised at the quality which was quite nice and quite cold.

- Ilford cooltone fiber - yes it would be great if Ilford took this step. Great company that makes great products. I use some of their film and have used mg4...great quality and consistency but not cold enough for me. From a commercial perspective i guess ilford believes it won't be profitable to offer a fiber version along with their cooltone developer...but i have to wonder if that analysis still holds. It was probably done in an era of many cold tone competitors - Forte, Kentmere, Slavich, Luminous, etc - now all gone except for limited grade 3 only options. Ilford could literally have nearly 100 percent of this part of the market. Something to think about perhaps.

Once again thanks everyone. I'll keep watching...and in the meantime maybe finish off my Slavich stock...

Kentmere is still available at Freestyle:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/category/7-Paper/Black-and-White-Paper?mfg[]=209

Secondly, when was the last time you printed on RC? Modern RC looks good enough that I sometimes wonder why I bother with the hassles of FB. Especially once under glass, if it's going to be framed. Longevity concerns are, of course, a different issue. I print all contact sheets on RC, at least. I don't like RC glossy as a rule (except for contact sheets, for which it's better of course than any textured paper if you are going to examine smaller frames from 35mm or 120 under a loupe) but the pearl and similar surfaces are now quite good.

My main issue with Ilford Cooltone is that it isn't available larger than 11x14 and I don't want to get hooked on a paper I can't get in 16x20.

ROL · Jul 11, 2013

Tom Kershaw said:
I tried the Slavich paper a few years ago and found problems with the coating quality; however it may have been a bad batch.

Tom

FYI: I expected to see emulsion problems with this paper, and that may have been true prior to my uses, but have had none, reliably producing several fine prints from it in sizes from 11x14 to 20x24. However, the "double weight" Slavich is a bit thin, more of a single and a half at most, so bear that in mind when processing. Do not write notes or otherwise mark on the back of it within the image area. For more political reasons whistling, I'd prefer to invest in the Czech Foma papers, if only a cold tone paper was available.

hansformat · Jul 11, 2013

With regard to rc paper you have hit the nail on the head. I like glossy paper...rc gloss however is too shiny. Gemerally fiber gloss is perfect ... Glossy but with texture and wave that is quite nice, and not too reflective. The glossy in the baryta digiital papers can be very good also...eg Harmon gloss baryta and Canson Baryta. Both striking with 'pop'. And you get archival stability along for the ride as well.

HowieP · Jul 11, 2013

This may be an unpopular answer in this forum but I absolutely love Oriental VC RC paper in the smaller sizes for its coolish tones and overall reporoduction of my images. I use the fiber base in 16"x20" and 20"x24" because it is easier to have mounted than RC. While it is not as cold toned as the original poster probably desired, it is colder toned and simply better IMO than a lot of the other papers remaining on the market. As for longevity, I've used it the RC version for decades and have had no image degradation to date.

Roger Cole · Jul 11, 2013

Nothing in RC quite matches FB glossy or what used to be called "glossy dried matte" back when people actually still ferotyped. But the Ilford Pearl and similar surfaces from other makers come close enough that you likely won't notice the difference IF mounted under glass and viewed from more than a few inches away. Of course without the glass and/or viewed up close, the difference is more apparent.

I have two mounted and framed 8x10s on Ilford MGIV (or old enough they might be III, I'm not entirely sure) RC from the early 90s that have started to deteriorate in places. They are getting a pink/purplish stain around the edges near the mat and one of them in some parts of the image. It could be due to my processing but RC is pretty simple. Both were selenium toned but not for significant color change, just cooling the natural green tint and deepening D-max. That might bear into color of the degradation but I'd expect selenium to help it, not hurt it. I've no idea if modern papers would do this if treated similarly.

hansformat · Jul 12, 2013

Sorry to hear about the rc print deterioration...

Given the ilford decision announced today - no cooltone developer - it is probable they cannot make cooltone fiber work financially. Thats a shame but i really respect the company and they know what they are doing.

For all intents and purposes classical cold tone is dead in the darkroom. Thats pretty sad - i love the look and i like working in a darkroom. But i can still achieve what i want - digitally - lightroom, epson pigments, abw mode, baryta paper. And you get archival as part of the process. So thats where this story most likely ends.

It is what it is

DREW WILEY · Jul 12, 2013

Wrong, absolutely wrong. I already gave one answer. Kentmere Fineprint VCFB. Best kept secret around. Not Kentmere graded Bromide, which is nowhere near as rich, though it is cold. Fineprint is a fast emulsion apparently with some silver iodide in it. In conventional MQ developers or cold tone tweaks it will have a slightly chestnut brown coolish tone - but not a neutral black. If you want it truly gold you do amidol and then DMax it with GP1, plus optionally selenium too. Now to dispose of another myth - gold toning and amidol aren't expensive to use - a little goes
a long ways. You don't need very much per printing session. And mixing your own formulas from scratch is pretty easy.

David Brown · Jul 12, 2013

hansformat said:
... i do not think you can make any paper look cold. ...

I think this may be part of your problem.

DREW WILEY · Jul 12, 2013

Ilford Galerie is still around too, though not stocked many places.

hansformat · Jul 12, 2013

Points taken. If you are willing to go to comparatively extreme solutions - printing only on one grade, gold toning, amidol, mixing your own chemistry, then you can get there. Fair enough. If those types of solutions are beyond your means or time and what you want is to flexibly work in the darkroom in standard ways at average costs well then i dont really think i'm exagerating to say it is dead.

For those of you who persevere in spite of these challenges i respectfully commend you. But it is a bridge too far for me and i would humbly submit most

Once again thanks everyone for your thoughts

DREW WILEY · Jul 12, 2013

Name me one decent cold tone paper that wasn't expensive in its era. Did you read what I stated: VCFB (variable-contrast) Kentmere Fineprint. There's nothing extreme about any of this. It's more complicated in the kitchen helping my wife make cookie batter. Amidol is extremely easy to brew, and yeah, it's about 50 bucks for a hundred grams, and 1% gold chloride is around 75 bucks for 100 ml - but for me that's enough for about a year of making large prints! These chemicals are very effective, so you need quite little per session. Gosh - compared to what mere students will pay these days for raw inkjet paper with nothing on it except sizing - no silver, no gelatin - I don't see how anyone can complain. If you want cheap then use Ilford MGIV RC in any number of the published cold-tone formulas around. Seems like
you've decided the game is lost before you even got to a chance to bat. But if you must have a premeasured paper developer, just go to
some outfiit like Photographer's Formulary. They've got a decent premixed substitute for amidol, but true amidol is actually cheaper if you
mix it yourself.

hansformat · Jul 13, 2013

A paper that did the cold slightly bluish black was Forte Polygrade with Edwal Ultra black. It was fantastic. Only challenge was it went nuts in selenium - at 1:10 or 1:20 went purple in 1 minute or less. Ended up diluting 1:30 or 1:40 and very little image change (probably not much archival protection either). That paper was my favorite - toned or untoned.

The expense i refer to is not the paper...but the gold tone and the amidol and the time of mixing and dealing with those. They seem to me to be for folks who can commit more than i can. Gold toner from fotospeed is $130 for 50 8x10s. Thats a pretty big commitment. Plus not easy to work with (high temp required).

I am not ruling any of this out. It is just a stretch for me in several ways and i think probably a stretch for most.

All is not lost in the darkroom - the Adox 110 is great and with Moersch blue black dev i get a nice neutralish tone. The paper is great. For some imagea i like warm and of course thats no problem - adox again or Ilford or even others. Great choices.

It is just a shame that cold is such a challenge. The one i enjoy the most is the challenge! But i'll live.

Oriental vc fb cold?

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