Oriental Seagull VC and Forte Polygrade

ineffablething · Dec 14, 2005

Can someone with good knowledge of these papers compare and contrast them in terms of paper weight, surface and image tone?

Much appreciated,

IT.

PeterDendrinos · Dec 14, 2005

ineffablething said:
Can someone with good knowledge of these papers compare and contrast them in terms of paper weight, surface and image tone?

Much appreciated,

IT.

In my opinion, there is no comparison. the Forte blows the Oriental away. I was never able to get good tones with the Oriental, but the Forte produces them fabulously. i have a box of Oriental you can have if you want it. i'll never print with it again.

Pete

MikeM1977 · Dec 14, 2005

PeterDendrinos said:
In my opinion, there is no comparison. the Forte blows the Oriental away. I was never able to get good tones with the Oriental, but the Forte produces them fabulously. i have a box of Oriental you can have if you want it. i'll never print with it again.
Pete

I think they are both nice papers, but I prefer the Oriental VC FB to Forte Polygrade. The Forte has more of a slight color cast to the paper whereas I find the Oriental to be more neutral. I'd be happy to take your box of Oriental!

ineffablething · Dec 14, 2005

PeterDendrinos said:
In my opinion, there is no comparison. the Forte blows the Oriental away. I was never able to get good tones with the Oriental, but the Forte produces them fabulously. i have a box of Oriental you can have if you want it. i'll never print with it again.

Pete

Ok, I'm glad you like it more, but I am wondering if one is heavier than the other, if one is glossier than the other, if one takes toner better than the other, and if one dries to a higher gloss than the other.

MikeM1977 · Dec 14, 2005

ineffablething said:
Ok, I'm glad you like it more, but I am wondering if one is heavier than the other, if one is glossier than the other, if one takes toner better than the other, and if one dries to a higher gloss than the other.

If I recall correctly, the Polygrade is slightly thicker and dries with more gloss. But I will see if I can find 2 prints for comparison.

I found Polygrade didn't do well at all in Kodak Sepia. Did better with Kodak Brown. Does fine with Selenium. I haven't been toning the Oriental much...just 1:20 selenium so I can't really comment on how it responds.

Tom Stanworth · Dec 16, 2005

ineffablething said:
Can someone with good knowledge of these papers compare and contrast them in terms of paper weight, surface and image tone?

Much appreciated,

IT.

Oriental is similar weight, similar finish, less cold, less contrasty by a touch. Your preference will come down to how your negs mesh with the paper curve. You will have to try both to find out which suits you better! I have produced fine prints from both and like both very much. Some negs print well on one and some on another. Using a number of papers is not a sin!

Tom

John Simmons · Dec 17, 2005

I just finished testing a box of oriental VC fiber paper and I would have to say that the forte is much better in terms contrast. Local contrast is much greater IMO. The forte seems a bit heavier and responds much better to toning. I have gotten great results split selenium and sepia toning....but you really have to dilute the bleach ALOT for it to work. The oriental does have a nicer air dryed gloss finish but seems to have a...(i don't know how to put it)...a dimpled texture. If I were to have to pick between the two it would be the forte. The graded oriental is much nicer than the variable contrast oriental.

PeterB · Dec 18, 2005

John Simmons said:
The oriental does have a nicer air dryed gloss finish but seems to have a...(i don't know how to put it)...a dimpled texture.

Hi John,
would this dimpled texture be aptly described as 'mottle' ? Do you have any light grey areas on your print with no features other than pure grey (e.g. sky). Are the dimples more obvious there? In essence I'm trying to see if it looks like the mottle here on the LHS test strip of Oriental paper http://www.users.on.net/~tallowood/images/Mottled%20Grey%20on%20Oriental%20Seagull%20%233.jpg

regards
Peter

PeterB · Dec 18, 2005

I only have experience using the Resin coated Oriental. After months of testing and dissapointment (because I had high hopes for a paper that I once loved in its prior form), I decided to purchase a box of Forte polygrade instead. I'll try to remember to post back my ideas when I've used it.

BTW, if any of those reading this have recently printed on Oriental paper, would you consider measuring or subjectively assessing the (Base+Fog) level? I'd love to know how "white" your whites are compared to other neutral or cold tone papers that you use.

thanks
Peter

Tom Stanworth · Dec 19, 2005

Oriental VC that I have used has been beautiful with wonderful clean whites as does PG, though OS can be quite grey out of the fixer and clears up in the wash. I find the tonal range of OS so beautiful but contrast is lower than most papers, esp MGIV or MCC so you need meaty negs. Tones very well for density not colour change in selenium and does not go plummy like polygrade. If you want neutral prints with a good deal of toning and thus protection it is far better than polygrade as to tone PG substantially (remembering that protection is proportionate to the level of toning) you do get appreciable colour change. Both are wonderful but quite different. If you like thio toning, OS is again great as you can tone highlights and then nail the blacks with a touch of selenium whilst keeping them neutral. PG is wonderful too, but an unusual neatral cold paper in the way it changes colour like a Warm emulsion in selenium.

I have heard from some that their recent OS has been very low contrast and unimpressive. Mine is quite old. Maybe the new stuff is below par?

Tom

kjsphoto · Dec 19, 2005

ineffablething said:
Ok, I'm glad you like it more, but I am wondering if one is heavier than the other, if one is glossier than the other, if one takes toner better than the other, and if one dries to a higher gloss than the other.

In my experience the Oriental does not tone well at all at leat with Kodak Sel tone and I have tried all different dilution. The forte tones extremely nicely. The oriental does have a nice gloss to it once dry but I only use semi mat in the forte. As far as weight the two paper feel about the same in thickness to me.

kjsphoto · Dec 19, 2005

Tom Stanworth said:
I have heard from some that their recent OS has been very low contrast and unimpressive. Mine is quite old. Maybe the new stuff is below par?

Tom

The old stuff was superior than the newer stuff. There is no comparison between the old and new and unfortunately you cannot get the old stuff anymore That was my favorite years ago, now I am going to start trying Kentmere out and see how that goes once I finish up my OS.

ineffablething · Dec 19, 2005

Well, I went out and printed one hundred sheets of each yesterday. I was quite familiar with the Oriental [roduct, but had wanted to try to Forte since it had been years since I tried their paper. First thing right out of the box, I noticed that the Forte paper is noticeably lighter in weight. Kind of disappointing. It printed very well and was slightly contrastier than the Oriental. Oriental has always taken selenium very well, and I use a 1:30 dilution to get it to go black and 1:20 for a purplish color. Forte seemed slightly more active in selenium and I was able to get deep blacks at 1:35 and eggplant purple at 1:20. Both nice papers but I prefer the heaver weight Oriental stock.

PeterB · Dec 19, 2005

Tom Stanworth said:
I have heard from some that their recent OS has been very low contrast and unimpressive. Mine is quite old. Maybe the new stuff is below par?Tom

Thanks for your reply Tom. Yes unfortunately as a few have noted the newer OS comes up below par. I suspect that you were using some of the older paper which has not been manufactured for quite a few years now.
regards
Peter

fhovie · Dec 19, 2005

I use mostly Forte FB paper but rarley use the VC - I do keep one box of 11x14 of Elegance VC on hand. It is a good paper but not as good as the fixed grade paper in terms of color and tonability. The VC doesn't color the same at all as the FB and it changes hue much less than the fixed grade. When I screw up a negative - I use VC - I tried the split contrast techniques and realized that at this time, my energies needed to be focused on improving other areas of printing and negative creation skills - I am just always happier with the snappy look of the Grade 2 and grade 3 prints I make with the graded paper and am very happy with the Forte FB papers. I was also very happy with the Ilford Gallery FB and the Cachet FB exposition grade papers as well. Forte was always the better value.

hortense · Dec 19, 2005

Forte Polygrade Paper

PeterDendrinos said:
In my opinion, there is no comparison. the Forte blows the Oriental away. I was never able to get good tones with the Oriental, but the Forte produces them fabulously. i have a box of Oriental you can have if you want it. i'll never print with it again.

Pete

Interestingly, Bruce Barnbaum uses Forte Polygrade almost exclusively, FWIW.

Oriental Seagull VC and Forte Polygrade

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