Oriental G Discontinued per Freestyle

Richard Jepsen · Feb 27, 2012

Today I ordered paper and supplies from Freestyle. The new price for Galerie, G3, 11x14, 50 sheets is $160.00. I asked about Oriental G as an alternative. The Freestyle rep said Oriental papers were recently discontinued by the manufacturer. We still have good papers but it is getting more expensive.

Derek Lofgreen · Feb 27, 2012

Be glad we're not buying ink jet ink for our prints. I just dropped $60 for some for my office "all in one" printer! Kills me.

D.

ME Super · Feb 27, 2012

The cost of ink is precisely why I don't print photos at home unless they're part of a DVD cover I'm making for home movies. It's cheaper to have a lab do it than it is to do it myself on an inkjet. Better quality, too. I have a friend who prints his photos at home on his printer and he's always complaining about having to go buy ink for it. I keep telling him its better to have it printed somewhere else - even at a one-hour lab.

ME Super

PeteZ8 · Feb 27, 2012

All Oriental papers are discontinued?

MattKing · Feb 28, 2012

PeteZ8 said:
All Oriental papers are discontinued?

This link indicates that the graded paper is discontinued, as well as some others: Dead Link Removed

Roger Cole · Feb 28, 2012

Ilford papers are among the most expensive. I'm not sure why graded is often more than VC but just glad I use VC. Still, three bucks a sheet for 11x14 ain't THAT bad. I'm paying just over $2 a sheet for the Adox MCC I use, and the same $3 a sheet for MGWT FB. The latter is a bit easier to swallow since it comes in 10 sheet boxes, and I don't use that much 11x14.

Wayne · Feb 28, 2012

Well, there's another box of white gold in my freezer...that rather sucks. I actually used that quite a bit.

Simon R Galley · Feb 28, 2012

Hi Roger,

I can explain: Graded papers either in RC or in FB are coated and made ( and sold ) in much, much lower quantities than Variable Contrast products. Exactly the same principles apply to their manufacture and sale as to why people buy VC, we have higher wastage as a percentage of coated product and we have to hold more inventory for longer and that is reflected in a higher cost per m2. GALERIE is somewhat 'special' anyway due to silver content.

Our philosophy is very clear, that we will continue to make these graded products available to the market, but they are higher price product ranges.

Thank you for buying and valuing ILFORD Photo products.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Jeff Kubach · Feb 28, 2012

Sorry to hear about Oriental papers.

Jeff

Roger Cole · Feb 28, 2012

Simon R Galley said:
Hi Roger,

I can explain: Graded papers either in RC or in FB are coated and made ( and sold ) in much, much lower quantities than Variable Contrast products. Exactly the same principles apply to their manufacture and sale as to why people buy VC, we have higher wastage as a percentage of coated product and we have to hold more inventory for longer and that is reflected in a higher cost per m2. GALERIE is somewhat 'special' anyway due to silver content.

Our philosophy is very clear, that we will continue to make these graded products available to the market, but they are higher price product ranges.

Thank you for buying and valuing ILFORD Photo products.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Figured as much, but wasn't sure if that alone could explain it.

I do appreciate Ilford and like your products very much. Until recently I wasn't much for warm tones but have been on a warm tone kick of late and have used MGWT probably 2:1 over the MCC 110 I also use, in spite of the fact the MCC 110 is considerably less expensive. Within reason I use what I like the best, not what's cheapest. I feel like I have to say "within reason" because a paper that cost, say, $10 per sheet of 8x10 I would not use, no matter how good it was. But I'm certainly willing to pay a little more for something I like.

DREW WILEY · Feb 28, 2012

The original Oriental G was amazing stuff. I still have a few sheets of 20X24 left. The redux version has similar image tone but lacks some of the special snap and versatility. If this rumor is true, my hunch is that VC papers have finally gotten so good that a number of printers switched over. I certainly did.

Richard Jepsen · Feb 28, 2012

I am happy for all the remaining choice we have in geletin silver papers. But I did adjust my order of Galerie as EMAKS was priced $80.00 less for a 50 sheet box of 11x14. Galerie and EMAKS graded are both premium products slightly different from each other. If you must have a white base Galerie is the one for graded papers. Its too bad more people don't try graded papers and discover their properties.

MaximusM3 · Feb 28, 2012

Richard Jepsen said:
I am happy for all the remaining choice we have in geletin silver papers. But I did adjust my order of Galerie as EMAKS was priced $80.00 less for a 50 sheet box of 11x14. Galerie and EMAKS graded are both premium products slightly different from each other. If you must have a white base Galerie is the one for graded papers. Its too bad more people don't try graded papers and discover their properties.

VC is great and easy, but graded still rules IMO. I try to tailor my negatives to use graded paper (and or tweak developer/development) as much as I can. Unfortunately, with Slavich out and now Oriental, choices are certainly disappearing. Galerie is GREAT, no doubt, and I'm glad it's still here.

Roger Cole · Feb 28, 2012

MaximusM3 said:
VC is great and easy, but graded still rules IMO. I try to tailor my negatives to use graded paper (and or tweak developer/development) as much as I can. Unfortunately, with Slavich out and now Oriental, choices are certainly disappearing. Galerie is GREAT, no doubt, and I'm glad it's still here.

How about Adox Nuance? I've no experience with it (or other graded papers for many years) but I really like the MCC 110.

MaximusM3 · Feb 28, 2012

Roger Cole said:
How about Adox Nuance? I've no experience with it (or other graded papers for many years) but I really like the MCC 110.

Roger,

Never tried Nuance, but yes, MCC110 is fabulous paper.

Max

Thomas Bertilsson · Feb 28, 2012

Roger Cole said:
How about Adox Nuance? I've no experience with it (or other graded papers for many years) but I really like the MCC 110.

If I remember correctly, Adox Nuance is repackaged Fotokemika Emaks, which is wonderful paper.

Roger Cole · Feb 28, 2012

Just throwing it out for someone looking for another graded paper to try, based on my experience with MCC 110.

EDIT: Just checked Freestyle and under the description of the Emaks it says, "Same as Nuance brand and Cachet Expo RF graded fiber-base photographic papers." So it seems you are correct. Price is the same too, but in different size packages so if I wanted to try it I'd try the smallest then if I liked it buy the right one for my level of usage.

Thomas Bertilsson · Feb 28, 2012

Roger Cole said:
Just throwing it out for someone looking for another graded paper to try, based on my experience with MCC 110.

EDIT: Just checked Freestyle and under the description of the Emaks it says, "Same as Nuance brand and Cachet Expo RF graded fiber-base photographic papers." So it seems you are correct. Price is the same too, but in different size packages so if I wanted to try it I'd try the smallest then if I liked it buy the right one for my level of usage.

Roger,

It's really beautiful paper. The different contrast grades have different speeds, so it's a good idea to tune your negatives to a single grade.
The range is really long, so it's particularly good with negatives of fairly high contrast. It responds to water-bath treatment, works great with Amidol for example.
The base is not as white as Ilford Galerie, but is more 'natural' paper base, and is beautiful in its own right.

As with everything, switching papers can open up a can of worms you don't really want. If you instead start with the paper + developer you normally use, print a step wedge first to see what kind of values your negs need to print well. Then tune your film exposure and processing to suit the paper. That always gives you best results.

- Thomas

DREW WILEY · Feb 28, 2012

Remember when Brett Weston had the customized license plate, "SEAGULL". He sure worked magic with graded G. I loved that paper too, along with Brilliant; but honestly, I can get prints every bit as rich with modern graded
papers, not only MCC, but esp Polygrade WT and Kentmere Fineprint. There is always a learning curve with a new paper. Learning how not only expose but tone for that extra snap takes some experience. The exact image
color of G in amidol + sel tone was somewhat unique. Then I learned the special qualities of Forte Polygrade,
then Fineprint (another one with strange color until you learn the tricks - but a majestic cold tone once you do),
then Ilford WT, perhaps the richest silver paper I have ever used. I could lay examples of all of these side by side and each type has its own kind of wow factor depending on its suitability for the specific subject matter.
VC paper is just so much easier to use nowadays. I still use it as if it were a graded paper, since my negs are
generally exactly exposed and developed. But when a tweak is needed, or a difficult neg involved, you've got all
that extra capability. I miss the "good ole day" papers, but in other ways, these are the good ole days right now!

DREW WILEY · Feb 28, 2012

Oh... I made a typo and meant to imply that VC papers are now just as rich as graded. But I also have a fair amt of EMaks graded on hand. It's lovely silver-rich stuff that will pull-process much better than VC papers and is esp nice for portrait work.

Roger Cole · Feb 28, 2012

Polygrade WT is long gone, but Kentmere Fineprint? Really? That's readily available and practically the same price as MCC 110. If I had one wish to change MCC 110 it would be better response to selenium toning, especially when I want a cooler tone. How does Fineprint compare to MCC 110?

DREW WILEY · Feb 28, 2012

I've been plagued with typos today, Roger. For one thing, I meant to say snatch development in the last post relative to EMaks paper, rather than
pull processing, which is a film term. And I was referring to the current
Iford warmtone, not anything obsolete. The Adox paper is incapable of a
true cold tone, though it is a lovely rich paper in its own right. Fineprint responds well to conventional developers but tends to obtain a nutmeg overtone, analogous to how Seagull got a slight purple-sepia tone with selenium. This can be pleasing, but it's not what I generally do. To obtain
a true cold tone I develop Fineprint in amidol, give it a couple minutes or
so of gold chloride toning, and then a bit of selenium. It goes cool in the
gold then enriches a bit more in the selenium. A much more pronounced
cooling effect than possible in Forte Polygrade V, Adox MCC, or Galerie.
You can split tone it if you wish with a hint of Kodak brown following all the above (well rinsed in between), but the effect will be far less than in
Mutigrade WT. Lately I've printed some old 8X10 negs which looked great
on Brilliant but are even better on Fineprint. But as with all these things,
nuance is the name of the game in toning; go overboard and things tend
to get artsy/craftsy instead.

Richard Jepsen · Feb 29, 2012

Papers are different in paper tint, how they distribute tones, and overall image color. However, I think it is a true statement that graded papers do not have incorporated developer. That may extend their shelf life which seems to be longer than VC paper. Graded paper avoids curve splitting (See Post Exposure by Ctein).

I notice EMAKS grade 3 has excellent toe contrast. If you have low tones you wish to separate this is a good paper to use. EMAKS has a micro contrast certainly higher than PE papers. I found EMAKS works for most of my negatives. Galerie G3 is 1/2 grade softer than EMAKS G3 with one stop difference. Using both papers it was easy to fine tune print contrast without resorting to different developers. With the cost difference I am shifting to print developer for minor contrast control.

Using graded paper removes the urge to print negatives which do not print well. If the negative does fit the paper, I reshoot.

DREW WILEY · Feb 29, 2012

Richard - some of the stereotypes you hold about VC papers are no longer true, at least if you factor in the best
papers. But I have no interest in converting you over to them. EMaks has its own look and is a valuable asset to
my own tool kit, so to speak.

Richard Jepsen · Feb 29, 2012

Drew, you don't have to convert me to VC or even to PE paper. ADOX 312 VC is becoming my base paper for 35mm images enlarged to 8x12 inches on 11x14. A viewer may or may not notice differences between ADOX 312 and EMAKS when wall mounted; but the printer knows.

ADOX 312 has lots to offer when printing big; a white base, paper speed/contrast, paper surface and stiffness. Works great for wall mounts.

DR work is smooth when you eliminate variables.

Oriental G Discontinued per Freestyle

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