Organoleptic properties of Harvey's 777 type developers

Lachlan Young

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No, just have an interest in emulsion making from what I've read on this forum and elsewhere - there's a lot of good stuff in the emulsion making subforum etc about this, though it can take time to find - mostly in discussions about certain developer formulae containing iodide. And I think a combination of desire for lower toxicity in chemicals likely to be used by home users & a shift in R&D towards colour chemistry is probably what largely ended PPD derivative research in BW developers at Kodak.
 

Lachlan Young

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Is there any connection between Robert Lyon and the name Harvey? The patent covers a synthesis methods for combining three developers into one crystal, so it's well possible that less convenient versions of this developer were around before 1944.

As far as I can tell, Defender marketed 777 for Harvey at some point - Defender was swallowed by DuPont in 1945 after a 'close working relationship' - Defender's coating plant was in Rochester - and Lyon seems to be someone at DuPont who appears on some other patents in fairly unrelated areas in the approximate time period. All tends to suggest that DuPont wanted to get this product/ procedure patented for some reason or other.
 
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Alan Johnson

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Any idea what might possibly be the other ingredients in the ternary PPD complex?
 

Rudeofus

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Any idea what might possibly be the other ingredients in the ternary PPD complex?
The Lyon patent gives a range of examples. Typical combinations contain o-Phenylenediamine, Pyrogallol/Catechol/Hydroquinone (also halide substituted and/or methylated), and as a third component p-Aminophenol.
 

Alan Johnson

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https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/e4/47/b2/59a88c67799bb1/US2397676.pdf
What the patent does NOT claim is ternary addition compounds (with also sulfite and alkali):
10.... pyrocatechol+p-aminophenol+p-phenylenediamine
11.....hydroquinone +p-aminophenol+p-phenylenediamine
12.....chlorhydroquinone +p-aminophenol+p-phenylenediamine
The reason for NO claim might be that they were already known to be in use.
 
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Pixophrenic

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My question about pH of the 777 is a way to select between the alternatives that were actually used in the very first version. Any of these three combos would produce a useful developer, with the leading agent being p-aminophenol and some of the organoleptic properties as described in various places, with #10 having the strongest "medicinal" smell. They also fit Harvey's statement of his developer being as "different" from both Sease 3 and D-76 as they are from each other.
 
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Pixophrenic

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Is there any connection between Robert Lyon and the name Harvey? The patent covers a synthesis methods for combining three developers into one crystal, so it's well possible that less convenient versions of this developer were around before 1944.

You can fit Edwal 12 and 20 into this concept, although they can also be viewed as Sease developer(s), augmented with metol or p-aminophenol, respectively.
 
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Pixophrenic

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This is a distracting question, but I just looked into Henn's patent on chloro-resorcinol and it is not about grain, it is about suppressing silver stain in fine-grain developers containing over 75 g/L sulfite. Perhaps I missed some part of this discussion, but how does it all relate to 777? And while we are at it, could anyone point me to a film which <currently> produces this kind of "stain" in DK20? I just tried it on a clip of FP4 with three different concentrations of thiocyanate, and there is no silver stain. It is true that the grain is somewhat finer, but the look of the negatives is otherwise unimpressive. So, does this mean FP4 has chlororesorcinol incorporated in the emulsion and it is pointless to use DK20 with it?
 

Lachlan Young

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It's tangential to the 777 ingredients list, but the popular history states that DK-20 produced staining, when the actual commentary from Henn etc when introducing D-25 & Microdol (not Microdol-X) was to do with scumming problems in deep tank systems & replenishment. You should probably have no problems with DK-20 & modern films - indeed thiocyanate is a good silver solvent which has significant potential to offer finer & sharper grain (there is much discussion elsewhere on Photrio about the use of silver solvents & their relationships with higher iodide content emulsions, often taking off from threads discussing reversal process first developers). Microdol-X had the added anti-stain agent discussed in that thread - PE states later that similar chemicals are incorporated in emulsions today.
 
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