Organizational tips for negatives

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opticagent

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Hi,
Before my negative storage gets out of control, I was wondering if anyone had any tips on keeping things organized. As of now my negs are all in PrintFile sleeves with contact sheets and I keep them in light tight plastic binders. Everything is scattered and I have no idea what is where. I have large, medium and small formats of personal, family, school and fine art stuff scattered all within the binders. Not sure if I should keep a specific binder based for project/theme. Sort of think this makes sense but feel it could get a bit unruly later on down the road (in terms of storage space). Want to try and adapt a good system now that will still work 10 years down the road.
How do you all out there handle this?

Cheers,

Shawn Robinson
 

MikeSeb

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This topic is a frequent flyer around here, though I can imagine it might not be easy to search for. And I'm sure to be slapped by someone for mentioning the non-analog world here, but here goes.

I think the general principles should be these:

1) each image has a unique identifier, ie, an index number;

2) information about each image is stored separately from the image, keyed to its index number. IOW, metadata.

First, Principle #1. I used to use Print-File sleeves but recently changed to Archival Methods's SideLock sleeves, envelopes, and storage boxes for all work going forward. Easier to get negatives in and out, a bit easier to handle (IMO.) I shoot only MF and 4x5; each MF image gets a number based on year, roll number, and frame, thusly: 2009207-09 is the ninth frame of the 207th roll of 2009. I number the rolls as I load them or finish them; exact sequence is irrelevant, as long as each image's number is unique. I make no attempt to separate boxes of negatives based on format or camera. (Well, not entirely true; for physical reasons it's easier to keep 4x5 negs in their own box.)

For 4x5 negs I have a date-based system, such as 20091223-04, which is the 4th 4x5 negative shot on 12/23/09. Slightly different, reflecting the fact that LF images tend to be discrete entities, compared to frames on a roll that may span days. It's simple for me since I shoot only 120 and 4x5; but I'd use the same system even if I also shot 35mm. I'd just number each roll as I used it, across formats. So each image is numbered uniquely, which works regardless whether one shoots entirely digitally, entirely analog, or hybrid (as I do.)

Principle #2 can be implemented differently depending on one's workflow. (Brickbats inbound, I'm sure.) For my hybrid workflow (shoot film, scan and print digitally) I use both Lightroom and Expression Media as my cataloging programs. My metadata resides in these programs, which in effect "point" to the image files, which exist in one copy, in one place--the negative file box. My metadata consists of information like dates shot, processing information, film/camera/lens used, location and subject data, keywords, etc. Those whose processes are entirely analog could easily set up something similar in Excel, MS Access, or Filemaker Pro, keyed to your negative file numbers. You could also do it with index cards in a file box if you wanted to, just like the old library card catalog.

I think a metadata-based system like this one is far preferable to physically separating negatives according to subject, format, etc. What if you have images that fit several categories? With metadata, you in effect make index "pointers" to the images, which need only live in one place for easy retrieval.
 

Renato Tonelli

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I follow a very simplified system: negatives are organized by subject matter or place name, or person's name - even if it's just one negative on a whole page. I also write the date when the picture was taken and the place (e.g. SMITH, Jane 22 Dec. 2009 New York, NY). That page will have a letter and a number (e.g. S-1); the next time I take pictures of Jane Smith, the new negatives will go in its own PrintFile page and will be numbered S-1.1) and so on. I also try to group subject matter in their own binders. Sort of a very simplified library system.

There used to be a great little book on organizing photographs, but I haven't seen it in years.
Any system will work as long as it makes sense to you. Start now before you have thousands of negatives and it becomes a huge chore.

Michael has some good practical ideas.
 
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rwboyer

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I use a hybrid system.

All of my negatives are filed by date - no matter what format in printfile materials. That is not how I know where they are though. I keep things organized by project in Apple Aperture and keyword/metadata the crap out of images or contact scans. So... I have a single method for filing the physical copies but a very very flexible relational system for organizing/searching all of my images.

RB
 

Sirius Glass

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All of my negatives are filed by year and roll number in Print-File pages in binders. The subject(s) are written on the Print-File pages. The color prints are placed sequentially in storage boxes with the thumb nail print with every shot on the roll. Black & white have the proof sheet after the negatives.

Thus the system is 2007-56.

If I really got anal about it I would put the information on the computer but after 50 years my lightning sharp mind can locate what I want in less than 10 minutes. Maybe when I get old I will have to put it in Excel spreadsheets.

If you need a good binder try boiled rice or kaopecate.

Steve
 

dancqu

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Chronologically

All of my negatives are filed by year and roll number...
Thus the system is 2007-56. Steve

My method is very similar. Roll number begins at
1 each new year. So my first 2010 will be 'dated'
1-10. Exposure records and prints also include
the frame number. Dan
 

Dan Henderson

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I use the same reverse-date numbering system as Mike: 2009-12-24-01 as an example of a roll that I shot today, or 2009-12-24-1a for a sheet of 4x5 film shot from holder 1a today. I find that reverse numbering helps me get closer to a negative that I shot several years ago (let's see....it was winter...I think 2 winters ago...)

I store each negative sheet in a file folder with a contact sheet, any work prints from that roll, printing notes for any finished prints, and extra finished prints themselves. This makes reprinting a negative easier for me. I store all of the folders in an old, steel filing cabinet right outside the darkroom.

I used to print an extra contact sheet and put them in a binder with their roll numbers to make finding older negatives a little easier than thumbing through individual folders. I have recently started scanning the contact sheet and linking them to an Excel spreadsheet with the roll number, format, and general description of the subjects. I have not been using this long, but I think it might facilitate a search for a specific subject in the future. For example, if I want to find that shot I did of the ruined schoolhouse my grandmother once taught in, I can do an Excel search for "schoolhouse" and it will point me toward all rolls with "schoolhouse" as a subject. Then clicking on the link will take me to the digital file of the contact sheet, and I can quickly see if that is the specific negative that I am looking for. These are the kind of things that computers were made for.
 

juan

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For decades I've simply filed my negatives by year and a sequential number, regardless of format. About six years ago, I used a website software to create, in effect, a website on my hard drive so I could scan through small scans of the images in order to find them. I'm now switching that system over to Lightroom 2. Plans are (ha) to scan everything and get it into the system so I can find it.
juan
 

bobwysiwyg

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I've used a similar system for many years, mostly 35mm at the moment, but I've extended it to 4x5 now as well. I use year,month,day followed by a sequential number. The sequential number will indicate either a 35mm strip or a particular 4x5 negative.
 

Mike Wilde

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For specific projects such as a sitting for a friend for thier cristmas card image, etc. I still file the regular neg and contact sheet in a binder, but create a physical project file for the filing cabinet that tracks all correspondence on the issue, and may have a separate contact shet marked up to show how the printed images were cropped, or a phot copy of the binder's contact sheet with the same information drawn and written on it. That way from the project file I am easily able to know that say I shot that project on roll 2007-7-12, which is my 12 printfile page for July 2007.

I go by the edge number for 35mm images on a page,
a numbering pattern from the bound edge as thus for my 6x6 mf work

4 8 12
3 7 11
2 6 10
1 5 9

and for 4x5 from the bound edge as thus:

A B
C D

I keep a spiral bound film development notebook that gets updated to put film numbers against how they were developed, and abbreviated developer notes go at the top of the printfile, like PX D76 1:1 DN36.5. The DN relates back to a dial claculator in a Kodak darkroom dataguide that gives the time versus temperature settings. If it is something temperature sensitive, I will note that too. For instance I run some developers with Glycin, and always note what they run at; it s usually warmer than 72F.
 

Naples

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My system is rather crude.

I shoot only 135, and my negatives are all in four-across folding sleeves.

I store each four-across folded sleeve (or two) in a coin envelope (they fit perfectly), and label each coin envelope horizontally: Subject Matter and Location in upper left; Date in upper right. The coin envelopes are then stored in those photo boxes sold at camera stores, each photo box labeled by date.

With the Subject Matter, Location, and Date at the top of each envelope, it's easy to flip through the boxes to find a particular negative.
 
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Negative numbering

I think the general principles should be these:

1) each image has a unique identifier, ie, an index number;

2) information about each image is stored separately from the image, keyed to its index number. IOW, metadata.


I use a similar system to Michael's, very similar. For all roll films (35mm and 120), a typical negative number would look like this: 3B09M2654-23A.

The first alphanumeric is the format: 3 is 35mm, 6 is 6x6-cm (or 2-1/4 x 2-1/4, if you prefer), 7 is 6x7-cm, et cetera.

The second alphanumeric is the film type: B is B&W negative, C is B&W chromogenic, T is colour transparency, and N is colour negative.

The next two alphanumerics are the year: 09 is 2009.

The next alphanumeric is the month: January is A, February is B, to M for December. I excluded the letter I, as it can be too easily confused with the number 1, especially in what passes for my handwriting!

The next four alphanumerics are the individual roll numbers; I started my numbering system when I started in CEGEP in September, 1971. I have, over the years, shot rolls with no numbers; a lot of the stuff I did when I was in Ryerson Polyech in the 1970s is like that, and I have set a block of 100 numbers aside for a future renumbering. In that case (and when I get to it), the number above is prefixed with the letter "S," indicating that it was numbered out of sequence. A typical number would be something like this: S3B76P2105-16. It follows the model set out above, except that the letter "P" designates the 2nd quarter of 1976, which means I don't remember exactly when I made the negative. Student days, you know, lots to do and no time to do it...

The next four alphanumerics, "-23A" indicates that it refers to negative 23A, which one only finds on 35mm film. The dash "-" indicates that I should refer to the numbers on the film which are imprinted when the film is being converted by the manufacturer. If it is a pound sign (#), this indicates that I should ignore the numbers and count from the first negative, from the upper left, if 35mm and lower left if 120 film. I do this, for 35mm, when dealing with negatives which were made on some of the Eastern European films, such as Efke, which have small, hard to read numbers, and with older negatives I made on re-spooled 35mm motion picture film. For 120 film, often there are a two different sets of numbers on both sides of the films, so I find it easier to count negatives. Also, if on one of those RARE occasions when I actually OVERXPOSE my film, the edge numbers can be difficult to read.

For my 4x5 negatives, a typical number would be 4B09L23-08, which follows the pattern above, except that it refers to the 08th negative exposed on November 23, 2009, and is B&W negative film. I usually number each negative individually, in the top rebate area.

The roll number (3B09M2654) is written at the top of my Print File page, as well as on the back of my contact sheets from that roll. For sheet film, I write the numbers at the top of the Print File page, something like this: 4B09L23-09>12, which indicates the info as above, and refers to sheets 8 thru 12. The same number is also on the back of the contact sheet as well.

I keep a log of my rolls and sheets, and a separate log for processing information, as well. I have a all the original info going back to my first record, made in 1971.

For prints, I write an abbreviated number on the back, such as 2654-23A-V4B. The "2654-23A" is as explained above; the "V4B" indicates that for that particular negative, it is the 4th version made (exposure time differences, dodging and burning, contrast, et cetera), and the "B" indicates that it was the second batch of prints made, with those settings, from that negative. If that sounds unnecessarily complex, I find that it is the best way of sorting my prints, and that if there is a problem with processing, with the timer, or if a lamp that is about to blow, the letter code helps me to sort out the prints for final evaluation and to see if there is a drift or a trend in the final prints.

I also have a numbering sub-system for internegatives, interpositives, et cetera. If anybody is REALLY interested, drop me a PM.

If this all sounds like I'm more interested in writing numbers than making prints, guess again. I can find anything I am looking for in minutes, and when I get a print request, I can pull the data, and the file print, and make a print to match the one which somebody has seen on display. I have a friend that actually takes pride in HIS numbering non-system: dump the negatives in a box and hope you can find them. He can't.

Anybody see the original movie, "Fail Safe?" I refer to the one made in the 1960's with, I believe it was, Walter Matthau as a scientist. At a cocktail party, he postulates that in a nuclear war, two classes of people would survive. The first would be convicts, in solitary confinement; the second would be file clerks, surrounded by tons of paper, as paper is a natural insulator (remember that this film was made in the 1960s). Assuming that the convicts could get out, who would dominate the earth? The convicts would know violence...but the file clerks would know organization.
 

removed account4

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at present i have a system that really isn't very organized.
i used to write a short note on my print vue file
and stick it one after the next into a 3ring binder.
i kept my 4x5 negatves ( and contact prints ) in an archival shoe box
and glassine envelopes and unbuffered envelopes ( gotten from gaylord brothers )
each envelope was labeled in pencil what each view was ...

then i hit rock bottom.
i have countless 120 and 135 print vue sheets filled with negatives in stacks.
4x5 and 5x7 sheets are in empty film boxes, 4x5, 5x7, 8x10, and larger paper negatives are in stacks too...

i kind of know where things are, and when i don't i just hunt for buried treasure.
sometimes i find it, sometimes i find something else instead.
kind of like when i lose something and look for it, i find something else until i lose another thing ...

it is an entropic system, but it seems to work OK for the time being.

- john
 

George Collier

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See link below for a similar thread in the Presentation and Marketing forum.
I use Filemaker Pro, and mention it in my post in this thread.
Also, if you search for the word "Filemaker" in that forum, you will find several threads.
This is something that is important to consider, and form a method that works with your brain and inclinations.
Here is one of the threads:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
 

RalphLambrecht

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Hi,
Before my negative storage gets out of control, I was wondering if anyone had any tips on keeping things organized. As of now my negs are all in PrintFile sleeves with contact sheets and I keep them in light tight plastic binders. Everything is scattered and I have no idea what is where. I have large, medium and small formats of personal, family, school and fine art stuff scattered all within the binders. Not sure if I should keep a specific binder based for project/theme. Sort of think this makes sense but feel it could get a bit unruly later on down the road (in terms of storage space). Want to try and adapt a good system now that will still work 10 years down the road.
How do you all out there handle this?

Cheers,

Shawn Robinson

Here is what I do:

In addition to have a consistent numbering system for our negatives, it is equally important to maintain clear image and printing records. A 15-digit image numbering system keeps negatives and digital image files organized. I have used it to catalog my moderate library, which contains thousands of images and spans several decades. It has served me well, and there is never an issue in locating the negative or digital file for a particular print, as long as the print is labeled with the corresponding image number.
The image number starts with 8 digits to identify the year, month and day, on which the image was taken. This is followed by a single letter for the method of image capture: ‘a’ for analog and ‘d’ for digital files. For analog files, the next 4 digits are used to identify the roll of film shot that day, and the specific negative frame on that roll. If I shot sheet film, the first 2 digits are used to point out the format (‘45’ for 4x5 sheet film) and the other two identify the film holder. For digital files, all 4 digits simply reflect the exposure counter of the digital camera, and I add 2 digits to distinguish different versions of image manipulation.
 

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opticagent

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Wow!
Thanks everyone for sharing this invaluable information!
Going to get busy over the holiday break and get organized for the new year!
Cheers!
Shawn Robinson
 

jeroldharter

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This is how I do it:

First I start with one format, say 6x7, and put all of the negatives in sleeves with contact prints and settle on a system. Then I get tired of making contact prints so just do the negatives. Then I find a new system that seems better and switch to a new brand of negative sleeves that don't fit in the same container as the first brand so I buy archival boxes and everything gets mixed in randomly which defeats the entire purpose.

Then I switch formats to 4x5 and decide to store the negatives singly, then in groups of 4 with contact sheets, then singly again. Then switch to 8x10 and store them in plastic file boxes separately from all the rest.

And now I am reading this thread wondering what I might do next appreciating that this keeps me busy and interested on foul weather days.
 

sepiareverb

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Films get numbered as they come out of the camera, with a negative book # and roll #. Each frame gets added to that to discern individual images. I'm now in book 54, so an image from a 35mm roll I shoot today might be #5426.19A

Proofsheets are stored in this same order. I have scans of 8x10 proof prints that I make of most anything I like on the proofsheet on the computer, and these are tagged so I can find them. Negative number always leads me to the right place quickly. The weak link is finding images from so long ago I don't easily remember when or where they were shot- I don't have scans going back more than about 5 or 6 years. I do have a binder with a sort of keyword list with roll numbers that helps for older work, but it is not foolproof as there are no thumbnails to see.
 

Reinhold

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Jerold, that's funny...
John, I went through that 35 year ago...
Ralph, my brain works differently...
I don't give a hoot when I made the negative, I want to know what's on it...
George, we both know the central value of the Filemaker database...
Those in love with Printfile pages may find them limiting (as many have)...

I prefer to file by topic and use a Filemaker database, like george.

Here's another thread discussing filing...
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

The longer you wait, the deeper it gets...

Reinhold

www.classicBWphoto.com
 

rwboyer

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Jerold, that's funny...
John, I went through that 35 year ago...
Ralph, my brain works differently...
I don't give a hoot when I made the negative, I want to know what's on it...
George, we both know the central value of the Filemaker database...
Those in love with Printfile pages may find them limiting (as many have)...

I prefer to file by topic and use a Filemaker database, like george.

Here's another thread discussing filing...
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

The longer you wait, the deeper it gets...

Reinhold

www.classicBWphoto.com

I whole heartedly agree - organization by what and why is the way to go. The problem with physical file organization is you have a couple different variations to deal with in most cases. I went through this dilemma for years for commercial as well as personal as well as a crossover between personal projects.

In the end the best solution I came up with is one standard way to physically organize source material and stick to it the natural way to do it is date and sequence of some type (maybe subdivided by material/format if you want) for me it is strictly a date and sequence.

I used to use a database to do all of the other organizational structures on top of that as well considering you really want to be able to get at the source material from a number of different perspectives down the road. You really don't get that until you have been doing this for a while. So my database let me get to all of my source material by who what where when why as well as via technical details.

I have since decided (years ago) to replace my stand-alone database with Apple Aperture for tons of reasons and have found that it has been far more flexible and rewarding in numerous ways. Like most of you my 30 year+ photographic history is not all scanned. Not even close but I do have some sort of visual reference for just about everything that I can access via any direction that I can conceive in about 1/2 second that links me to my one and only way of filing physical medium Having the database combined with the visual reference is amazing. Worst case I have a hires scan as JPG of a contact sheet associated with a substantial amount of my work.

RB
 
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