optical printing versus Epson v700/750

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Hello all, I have a question or two regarding the quality and acutance of optical printing versus scanning.

My question is this: How do traditional optical RA prints from a MF or 4x5 negative compare to negatives scanned in an Epson v700/v750 and then printed on an inkjet printer? Let's say the final print is 16x20.

I currently use a Super Chromega Dichro and I am considering purchasing the V700/V750. I'm a high school teacher so Imacon scanners are way out of my budget. I'm not sure if this subject has been covered ad nausem, but I've scoured this site and the entire information superhighway and could not find an answer.

Any thoughts or help would be much appreciated. Furthermore, I'd love to hear from somebody who has experience with both.

Thank you,
Scarletbegonias
 

Loris Medici

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If your question is about detail/resolution, theoretically, you'll be fine with MF/LF film (6x7 and up) and 16x20 inkjet prints from V700/V750 scans. The scanner's real/actual resolution is enough for that purpose. BUT, digital workflow is different and there's a steep (for some) learning curve, so beware! No method/equipment will serve your vision before you master it...
 
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Loris , If you have time , please post list of what can be problem.
I think she needs to calibrate camera , film , scanner , printer and monitor altogether.
I think there are few digital Zone System books help to do this all.
May be you can give a books list.

Thank you ,

Umut

Istanbul
 

pellicle

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Hi

firstly when you say:

I'm not sure if this subject has been covered ad nausem, but I've scoured this site and the entire information superhighway and could not find an answer.

your right, this question is as old as RA-4 and other printers and scanners, and has indeed been done, re done and argued at great and passionate length. When you "scoured" did you use any search tools, or did you just browse forums and read read read ? I ask this because as a researcher and library worker I found many students were completely unable to find any articles of interest despite there being several thousands pertaining directly to their research topic. I'm not being hyper critical here, just curious as to your possible search strategies.

for instance:

using key words "scan and print compared to traditional print"

To your question, I have had some smaller experience in printing 4x5 onto multigrade paper using a Durst enlarger (more with 35mm).

I mainly contact print on 4x5 and find (personally) that nothing from an enlarger looks as nice but sometimes I'm nearly as happy with prints made by scan and print.

Inkjets can do quite nicely with black and white, RA-4 well with colour.


Hello all, I have a question or two regarding the quality and acutance of optical printing versus scanning.

My question is this: How do traditional optical RA prints from a MF or 4x5 negative compare to negatives scanned in an Epson v700/v750 and then printed on an inkjet printer? Let's say the final print is 16x20.

quite well ... although different. You will ask "what is different" and answering that is rather like me answering how one pineapple varies from another and then you determining what I mean by sweet.

If you have some experience on condenser vs diffuser heads you will perhaps be able to make that comparison of "different" and see where I'm heading.

I find the Epson scans look more like diffuser heads and that the Nikon scans look more like condenser heads when printed.

That is not to say that an Epson scan will look just like a optical enlargement print made on a diffuser head enlarger. But to give you a basis for comparison.

If you prowl through (there was a url link here which no longer exists) of mine, "Canadian wood" has (old Tri-x 4x5 in pyro)for instance been printed contact, 12inches wide optical and 16 inches wide scan and inkjet. I like the contact and the inkjet best. "ueno shrine" and "Butai" have only been printed contact and inkjet and I am very pleased with the prints.

The colour have only been printed on RA-4 and all were scanned with an Epson 4870

Keep in mind that 20 inches is only a x4 enlargement. Most will agree that a Epson is good for 2200dpi scanning, so between x5 and x7 enlargement is well within the scanners ability. I have been satisfied with photoshop upscales of the scans (with careful treatment).

I currently use a Super Chromega Dichro and I am considering purchasing the V700/V750. I'm a high school teacher so Imacon scanners are way out of my budget.

although if you are not scanning hundreds, perhaps a scan or two done professionally will not be ... then you could make a comparison.

I would say that there is a reason why the Epson flatbed scanners are about the only man left standing in the lower price (below $2000) point. They deliver the results and very few people need / desire / require / can identify the differences.

Any thoughts or help would be much appreciated.

glad to offer what I can

:smile:
 

Marco B

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pellicle

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interesting discussion in there thankyou for posting that. It was interesting reading as I know some of those posters ... I find the comment from frederick chang interesting:


I did a comparison 19x19 silver fiber print vs. imacon 949 scanned with epson ultrachrome inkset print a couple years ago and basically the answer is complicated. (note: the epson was using some expensive RIP that was superior to epson's default RIP)

in the shadows, the epson had difficulty separating the very fragile tones (I noticed this since I was shooting many low key photos at the time)... i concluded that the inkjet technology was limiting the shadow separation that i was used to in a traditional fiber print.

which is interesting as I had this image (pardon the scan, its an old scan)

Dead Link Removed

scan printed (I scanned on Epson 4870 and sent that to a fellow to print on cotton rag paper by RIP inkjet) and found quite the opposite. Particularly in the rendering of the large (bronze) lantern poles, the Chinese writing is visible within the shadow realm to the right of the poles.

Nothing short of a very careful custom print from an enlarger will get as close (possibly needing some split grade exposures in the dodge and burns).

This just goes to show that there is variation in what people find with either or both technologies and that each person needs to explore the various media (if they want to really understand and know) to be sure.

If one does not wish to make such an investment in time / effort (it can come by the way if one works with the stuff often) then I believe that the technologies (enlarger vs scan) are quite neck and neck with subtle differences available to each. The main issue (in my view) comes down to how you wish to work and why. In that area both are quite different.
 

Bob Carnie

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Not the same machine, but I tested 4x5 enviournmental portrait, pyro neg with an Imocan scan - cannon 9000 onto Harmon AR gloss against same negative, enlarger print on Ilford MG4
Print size was 30x40 , we selenium toned the wet print and with PS matched the tone on the inkjet.

Over a period of 6 months we showed these prints to many groups of photographers and asked them which were the inkjet and which were the enlarger prints from a proper viewing distance with some print sniffing allowed.
We wanted the to definately tell us which one was which and why.

Over 400 people saw these prints and the conclusion very few, and I mean very few could pick out which print was optical enlarger and which was ink. It always seemed to be a 50/50 chance.

Les Mclean was one who picked out the enlarger print , his reasoning was a focus issue on the edge of the optical print. Otherwise it was anyones guess.


For me the give away is always looking at an angle at these prints and looking for the relief that always seems to be present in inkjet prints.

To date I have not seen too many inkjets that from an angle do not give themselves away.
 

pellicle

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Good Morning Bob

For me the give away is always looking at an angle at these prints and looking for the relief that always seems to be present in inkjet prints.

To date I have not seen too many inkjets that from an angle do not give themselves away.

so it seems your saying that unless you're looking for artifacts of the process, that little distinguishes the aesthetic content and reproduction of tonal qualities (that a photographer would desire) in the print.

If so then this should ease the minds of many who are as yet uncertain of the "new" technology.
:smile:
 

Bob Carnie

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Well if you put it that way yes, I think that both methods of making prints are valid.
They only factor that I would consider now would be the archival properties of any given process.
I am now making ink jets on Arches Platine, for my clients that I want to keep with the end goal of tri colour gum for the permanence level that I feel will be missing from inkjets.

Good Morning Bob



so it seems your saying that unless you're looking for artifacts of the process, that little distinguishes the aesthetic content and reproduction of tonal qualities (that a photographer would desire) in the print.

If so then this should ease the minds of many who are as yet uncertain of the "new" technology.
:smile:
 

PVia

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Bob...how are you making inkjet prints on Platine? I've always had a problem when trying to print on non-inkjet watercolor/specialty paper...

Oh wait...are you using the new Canson Platine? I bet you are...if so, have you tried (and liked) any of the other Canson offerings?

Thanks!
 

Loris Medici

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Paul, can't speak for Bob but according to my experience, with high-end self-profiling printers (such as HP 3100z, 3200 ect.) you can get pretty nice results on fine-art paper, once you have a custom profile. Hard, surface sized papers work best.
 

Bob Carnie

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No , I am using Arches Platine , hot press and cold press, now I am using cold . First on a epson9600 and now with Cannon 1pf9000.

I am thinking of trying Canson, product line for day to day inkjet needs, we just need to get pricing in line.

I have never had problem with inkjets on Platine, though I am not expecting inkjet saturation or colour gamut, rather I am moving most of my inkjet clients I want to work with in the future to this paper , to dull down their expectations when I convert them to Multiple hit gum.


Its a bit of my master plan to work with digital negs from the Lambda and only do multiple hit alternative processes. Other than my serious silver clients who I will still print with an enlarger.

Bob...how are you making inkjet prints on Platine? I've always had a problem when trying to print on non-inkjet watercolor/specialty paper...

Oh wait...are you using the new Canson Platine? I bet you are...if so, have you tried (and liked) any of the other Canson offerings?

Thanks!
 
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