Opinions on this Sinar F camera?

Hi folks,

I'm interested in this camera as a reasonably priced way to dip my toe into the world of 4x5:


A couple of questions:

Is this a good starter kit? I'll be trying both studio and in the field shooting.

Anyone have any thoughts / advice / warning about this set-up and is there anything essential missing from it?

Does anyone know which model of Sinar reflex viewer will fit this camera? (many of the Ebay ads say "fits all model of Sinar", but i'm wondering if that's true).

Thanks for your time!

Since you have no experience with these cameras, you should look to buy something from a seller you know and trust. This is like buying a used car by looking at some pictures. It makes no sense.

Field camera vs monorail is a common point of discussion. The Sinar is a fine monorail system camera and very modular. Tracking down accessories can be tricky. What you've posted seems complete but ... I don't speak German Dutch?

I really like press style large format (Crown/Speed Graphics, etc) but it is a very different beast from a monorail setup and perhaps not as commonly available in Europe.

Dazzer123 said:

Hi folks,

I'm interested in this camera as a reasonably priced way to dip my toe into the world of 4x5:

≥ Sinar F - Technische Camera (large format) uitgebreide set — Fotocamera's Analoog — Marktplaats

Aangeboden een zeer uitgebreide en complete set.Het geheel is in puike staat.Sinar F bestaande uit:GroothoekbalgExtensie RailRailklem en

www.marktplaats.nl

A couple of questions:

Is this a good starter kit? I'll be trying both studio and in the field shooting.

Anyone have any thoughts / advice / warning about this set-up and is there anything essential missing from it?

Does anyone know which model of Sinar reflex viewer will fit this camera? (many of the Ebay ads say "fits all model of Sinar", but i'm wondering if that's true).

Thanks for your time!

Click to expand...

Nice camera if you shoot architecture or work in a studio. Will be very time consuming and bulky if you shoot landscapes etc.


Kent in SD

The Sinar F1 needs a sturdy box/hard case for landscape photography, in my opinion.

I used mine in the field a few times and the results were great, but I'd rather use a typical folding field camera, just for ease of carrying.

For near car carry/shooting, it's fine and I'd be happy to have one again and use it for still life's, seascapes and landscapes as an alternative to the Ani Speed Graphic.

I hope this helps.

I started out with a Sinar F. It's pretty nice in the studio, but I found/find it absolutely horrible for field use. I ended up getting an old and beaten Toyo Field for that purpose. It's way less precise, flexible and solid, but it has the advantage that I actually take it outside. The Sinar has spent virtually all of its time indoors.

As to the kit offered: I personally prefer something like a 135mm or 150mm lens. This one comes with a 90 and then two 210's. I'd swap out one 210 for a 150-ish. For landscape/outdoor work I'd personally prefer a 450 tele over the 90 - again, a personal thing and it relates to shooting style/preferences.

Looks like a kit in good shape that evidently has been cared for. Not sure where you're located, but personally I'd hop in the car and have a look at it in real life - but it's only about an hour's drive for me.

I learned large format photography at art college many years ago using a Sinar F. They are beautiful cameras, especially in the studio, but they are incredibly heavy for field work.

I was much fitter back then and carried it around in a custom Sinar hard case strapped to my back which itself is heavy. It's like carrying something the weight and size of a small fridge on your back, but it was still the most practical method. You'll also need a very sturdy tripod. I wouldn't dream of using one for landscape work today, unless you can just step out of the car, but even so generally speaking you don't need all the movements a Sinar F can do for landscape, it is overkill. Far better would be a proper folding field camera, something like a Shen Hoa etc. which is not only much, much lighter but the whole kit can be varied between a single lens and a couple of darkslides in a large satchel to a backback full of lenses, film, and filters.

Other cameras to look for are technical cameras/Press cameras such as Speed Graphic, MPP, etc. These are heavier than a field camera but still much, much lighter than a Sinar F, and they're very robust but can be set up very quickly. These, like field cameras, are still suitable for still life or studio work as long as you don't need a vast range of movements.

Of all the fine Sinar monorail cameras out there, it's a shame that the F was no available in a titanium form with short extensions and main support tubes as well as standards and accessories.

I say this as some of the very best "details"photographs I've seen, a long time ago, were done with monorail view cameras, including 8" x 10" and greater dimensions.

It's a good kit for that price, but Sinar has a good book on the practice of LF camera's, you should get that too...

Dazzer123 said:

Hi folks,

I'm interested in this camera as a reasonably priced way to dip my toe into the world of 4x5:

≥ Sinar F - Technische Camera (large format) uitgebreide set — Fotocamera's Analoog — Marktplaats

Aangeboden een zeer uitgebreide en complete set.Het geheel is in puike staat.Sinar F bestaande uit:GroothoekbalgExtensie RailRailklem en

www.marktplaats.nl

A couple of questions:

Is this a good starter kit? I'll be trying both studio and in the field shooting.

Anyone have any thoughts / advice / warning about this set-up and is there anything essential missing from it?

Does anyone know which model of Sinar reflex viewer will fit this camera? (many of the Ebay ads say "fits all model of Sinar", but i'm wondering if that's true).

Thanks for your time!

Click to expand...

This is the medium format forum, so I think this question is better posted in Large Format. I’ll take a run at it though because I shot tons of 4x5 and 8x10 in the day.

I would say this is a tough starter camera. Read up on axis vs base tilts before you make a buying decision.

Sinar are great quality, but the focus system would be easier to learn on an axis tilt camera, of which there are tons of good choices. Toyo, Calumet (later Horseman), Cambo (some a little flimsy), etc.

That looks like an old F+ model, or perhaps an F1; it's hard to tell because the link almost instantly blocks the picture. F+ used a 4X5 intermediate bellows standard as the front standard to lower the price, which is not as durable as the front standard on later F versions. If still in good condition, it would be fine as a starter camera, either in the field or in the studio. But given how abundant and economically priced used Sinar cameras are these days, you'd be better served by the later F2 model.

Sinar offered interchangeable components, which are still abundant, more so than any other brand of view camera. I've used various Sinar models in the studio, for architectural photography, and have carried them in backpacks well over 15,000 miles on foot in steep high-altitude terrain. Monorails like Sinar are faster to set up in the field than flatbeds or technical cameras, and have the great advantage of being length configurable with simple addition or subtraction of rail sections. But they are somewhat more bulky to transport.

DREW WILEY said:

I've used various Sinar models in the studio, for architectural photography, and have carried them in backpacks well over 15,000 miles on foot in steep high-altitude terrain.

Click to expand...

You are my hero and you must have the power and the back muscles of a Sherpa, but not everybody does. But now translate that for the OP who is a beginner and just starting out. Is the weight a daunting prospect for any beginner who typically has problems in learning large format beyond besides thinking about booking a chiropractor at the end of it? Are the massive range of movements possible with a Sinar monorail going to be useful for landscape photography, and is it worth alienating a beginner just because you carried a monorail 15,000 miles (nearly two thirds of the way around the globe)? I tend to think what I learn about something can be used to alleviate the suffering of others, not double down on it, and least of all expect them to carry it 15,000 miles to share your experience.

Because a Sinar monorail can be balanced at any point along its length, and the rail clamp itself has rotational and sideways tilt capacity, it requires less OVERALL weight load than than the typical Technika folders generally used by outdoorsmen in that era (which my brother used). Second, people like me who worked a lot with long focal lengths didn't need heavy telephoto lenses because bellows and rail sections were available any length needed, further saving weight. Third, you've got all kinds of convenient movements, whether you need a lot of rise facing a great cliff in the mountains or an interesting building front on a highway on the way out. Sinar is the FIRST LF camera I chose, and never regretted it, and it's still my preferred 4X5 system, though I now rely mainly on the classic Sinar Norma system.

And yes, I do know the distinctions between these choices quite well. Now 73, the Sinar just gets day hike use, while I use a little Ebony wooden folder for backpacking trips per se, or airline carry-on. My 8x10 is a folder too. But it's an utter myth that Sinar F-series aren't suitable for serious outdoor use. Going with petite lenses, bubble wrapping in an ordinary pack instead of a dedicated camera pack with a lot of heavy foam padding, or some ridiculous heavy case, eliminating a tripod head when it's also redundant in this instance .. a lot of weight savings. Again, it's the cumulative load that counts, not just the weight of the bare camera, as well as the comfort of the pack involved. I actually wrapped my Sinar in my goosedown jacket (plus plastic bags).

Alienation? Heck no! Getting outdoors with a serious camera sure beats running on a treadmill like a rat in a stinky indoor Gym if one wants to get into shape. There are indeed all kinds of excellent 4X5's to choose from these days, and I don't want to deprecate any of them. But its hard to get more bang for the buck these days than a basic used Sinar system.

I briefly worked with mules during a typical country kid rite of passage working for a mountain pack station the summer I was 16. I soon learned that mules were smarter than me; so I decided to become my own mule instead.

Thanks for the info and advice!

After i posted my original post i noticed that the seller has actually included a price, 1250 euro, which i think is overpriced. Considering i can buy a mint F1 body from Ebay Japan for 300 euro, albeit minus all the accessories and lenses.

One thing with used Sinar listings you need to be aware of is that sometimes the item being offered is a hybrid cobbled together with various leftover mismatched components. It might be perfectly functional, but not aligned to the actual description or alleged model number. So you need to look at the pictures carefully and ask questions in advance if there is any question about the item.

Dazzer123 said:

Thanks for the info and advice!

After i posted my original post i noticed that the seller has actually included a price, 1250 euro, which i think is overpriced. Considering i can buy a mint F1 body from Ebay Japan for 300 euro, albeit minus all the accessories and lenses.

Click to expand...

But the €300 price tag will be closer to €425 once taxes, duties & shipping fees are included.
Then you'll have to find yourself a lens; a simple 150mm doesn't have to break the bank, but still expect to spend €175 at least on the international market. If you find one in Europe to your liking (big if), that means you may have it in your hand for € 200, but if it happens to be from the US or Japan, you're again looking at something like € 250 or so at least. That's the entry-level price point for LF lenses of decent quality in a working shutter; if you want something longer or more wide angle, the price point will shift up.

Here we are, at nearly € 700 and you still have just the camera and one lens. Alright, with just some film holders and a release you can get started and odds are you can get all this for less than €100 delivered to your doorstep (4 holders + shutter release), but if you want to add another lens, let's say a wide angle, and we're off to the races again...

Let's hope that the camera you saw comes with an extension rail, 'cause you'll find yourself looking for one of those as soon as you try your hands at an indoor still life shot.
Fancied a 90mm wide angle? Oh...go back online to find those bag bellows, because the stock bellows your camera came with doesn't compress that far.

Not saying that you should jump on the ad you saw, or that I'm advocating the seller's pricing of the items, but I have bought quite a number of things (photography related and otherwise) internationally, and the overhead does add up pretty quickly. It's true that a Sinar F can be found for €250-€350 pretty easily. But that's only the very beginnings of a much longer and ultimately more expensive story. If you add it all up, the camera itself ends up being more of an 'accessory' than the rest of the kit, in terms of costs.

Btw, I remain of the opinion that the Sinar F, marvelous as it is and relatively lightweight for a monorail, is an awkward choice for field photography. I've packed it many times in a back pack, and it's just annoying how much time it takes to set up for a shot compared to a field camera. I'm also extremely skeptical of the comments that a Sinar-based kit ends up being lighter in weight than a field setup. At least in my instance the opposite is true. There are of course all sorts of ways to skew the comparison "for sake of the argument" or whatever people fancy. In my practice, the Sinar spends its time mostly stashed away in a box, and when shooting outdoors on 4x5, I bring a field camera. Perhaps there's something to its name, after all...

PS: not sure where you're located in the country, but feel free to drop by if you want to see what a Sinar F looks and feels like in real life. I'd be happy to set it up for you so you can see how it compares side by side with an old Toyo Field I've also got.

Take advantage of koraks offer. Seeing one in real life will be worth the time and money.

Gotta disagree with Koraks. I find Sinar monorails far faster to set up than any folder. Mine is fully equipped with an 18 inch rail, shade compendium, and if I want, I can even leave a lens of any size or focal length on it. I just pull it right out of the big top compartment of my pack, extend the bellows, focus, etc. Five times faster than my folders. But if one adopts that old fold-it-flat suitcase approach often illustrated in relation to packing Sinars, with rotated standards and detached bellows, well, then it is going to be relatively slow. That would be fine for airline carryon purposes however.

So in field work, one literally does need to "think outside the box", especially with respect to pack choice. Conventional camera packs or cases is doing things the hard way. I use true external frame backpacking packs. But on airline trips, I now take a little 4X5 folder instead of the Sinar.