Opinions on my Attempt

TattyJJ · Mar 30, 2017

I'm trying to have a go at doing some prints and actually being specific about dodging and burning times rather than randomly waving a bit of card on a stick about...
Wouldn't say i was totally happy with it, but after god knows how many tries about as good as i can get it.

Critique me, but don't be mean i'm still leaning

rpavich · Mar 30, 2017

Ok...I'll go first...I think you did a good job.
To me, your dodging and burning aren't noticeable and are effective.

bvy · Mar 30, 2017

It looks like you printed for deep dark shadows and then tried to obliterate most of them with your dodging strategy. I have a feeling you could have gotten much of the same effect by printing at a lower grade filtration. That aside, the one nagging thing I see is the darker building on the left. It looks washed out, so the dodging there feels a little extreme. (Notice too how the sign pole has shading at the bottom but is pure white at the top.) The building has sufficient shadow detail in the original and since it's a marginal feature (i.e. not the main subject), you probably could have left it alone or dodged maybe only half as long.

None of this is egregious. Overall it looks pretty good.

TattyJJ · Mar 30, 2017

bvy said:
It looks like you printed for deep dark shadows and then tried to obliterate most of them with your dodging strategy. I have a feeling you could have gotten much of the same effect by printing at a lower grade filtration. That aside, the one nagging thing I see is the darker building on the left. It looks washed out, so the dodging there feels a little extreme. (Notice too how the sign pole has shading at the bottom but is pure white at the top.) The building has sufficient shadow detail in the original and since it's a marginal feature (i.e. not the main subject), you probably could have left it alone or dodged maybe only half as long.

None of this is egregious. Overall it looks pretty good.

I see what you're saying. I did do another print before with a #2 filter but it looked a little washed out in general.
My main reason for dodging the building on the left was because I was trying to keep the focus of the image on the subject in the centre and it kinda drew attention too much.
I would have liked to dodge the trees to the right of the head a little too but was struggling to fit it into the exposure time.
Think I need a lower wattage bulb in my enlarger....

greg zinselmeier · Mar 30, 2017

well, compositionally speaking, personally I would not have had the spire coming out of his head. Also I think this type image should be shot with LF, to control perspective. Also You should shoot during differing times of day to really understand and make a statement with your image. I like your color of your print. I like the two dark couple on right and white stop sign with corresponding tone of cars. More depth of field for my taste is needed. I agree with BVY that its too bleached out on the left. Also possible fill flash for statue in front. his pant legs are too dark,// /// you need more dark things on right side of image and more light things on left. I would think "stage craft" as Ronny would put it be useful here. literally fake the scene. you need to develop your ideas further . What are you trying to say??? just my two cents. . . ... . good start though. good luck and keep pressing on. cheers

tedr1 · Mar 30, 2017

Really good work, well done. This is something that gets easier with practice.

MattKing · Mar 30, 2017

I was going to say something about Ronald Reagan's dark side, but that might end up in a political dispute .
One of the things I try to stress to new printers is that it is important that they decide what parts of the print should be emphasized, and what parts of the print matter less.
So I would throw this back to the OP: what were you trying to achieve? If you were most interested in the statue, I would have guessed that you would want more detail in the shadow side of the statue. Which would mean to me that more dodging there was warranted.
What I see looks reasonably well done. Is the result what you intended?
One suggestion though. It really helps if you express your dodging or burning as a percentage of your main exposure. So if your main exposure is 20 seconds, express your 3 second burn as 15%. It is even better to use f-stop printing, but I hesitate to recommend that to those who are just starting out.

Mick Fagan · Mar 30, 2017

I think your second “corrected” print is wonderful.

You have made it so, that unless one is told it had been manipulated, one wouldn’t know it had been manipulated.

That said, there are more interpretations open to you.

My personal preference would to have the dark building on the left you pulled by 8”, only pulled by 4”. It is a dark building and trying to print detail that isn’t important to the subject of the photograph, is a little distracting.

I have no issues with the building in the background growing out of Ronnie Ray-gun’s head. It goes with the territory and is sufficiently out of focus to be inconsequential to me.

I would possibly think about making Ronnie stand out a bit more though. One avenue I would probably look at, would be to pull the statue a ½ of a stop (which is 10”) then burn the statue in at grade 4 (or maybe grade 3½) for the missing half of a stop. This would give Ronnie a contrast kick and make him stand out more from the background.

Having the statue go darker and lighter from the contrast kick would be the lesser of two evils, and, by making it less flat, it should stand out more.

Cut out Ronnie from one of your excess test prints and use that to do the contrast bit exposure.

Ronnie in the top print looks so much better than the bottom print, in my eyes anyway.

My 20 cents worth.

Mick.

TattyJJ · Mar 30, 2017

I cant honestly say i am trying to say anything at all. Perhaps i'm not that artistically refined lol
My main goal... To wonder round Budapest slightly tipsy from sampling a few too many local wines and take some cool well framed photos

I see how the building on the left i could have gone a little easier on. I was trying to balance it more to the right side of the image which is much lighter, i may have gone a little too far.

I find it easier to mark the print up in seconds, my reasoning is i try to make the amount of dodging divisible by the total exposer time. That way i can set the timer to the number of seconds for each section of the print and by time i'm done i should be at or under the total exposure.
This could be totally the wrong way to do it, it is limiting for sure, but i found it the easiest way to figure it out in my head.

Split grade printing is something i am yet to delve into. I'm waiting for some books to arrive at the library that should hopefully help me there.

It's normal to get threw bucket loads of paper while learning right?! I've almost burned my way threw a 25 sheet pack just trying to do 2 prints!

Anyway, see below for my second attempt at something reasonable this evening. This image is one of a pair, the second is the same but the focus switched to the mirror, that shall be tomorrows goal!

Forgive the god awful glare, i should really dig the scanner out and do this properly.

Sirius Glass · Mar 30, 2017

On the OP's first post. You did well and as you do more printing you will get better.

MattKing · Mar 30, 2017

TattyJJ said:
I cant honestly say i am trying to say anything at all. Perhaps i'm not that artistically refined lol
My main goal... To wonder round Budapest slightly tipsy from sampling a few too many local wines and take some cool well framed photos

I wasn't suggesting artistry. I was trying to suggest focusing on what parts of the photo interest you the most or which you are most interested in.

I find it easier to mark the print up in seconds, my reasoning is i try to make the amount of dodging divisible by the total exposer time. That way i can set the timer to the number of seconds for each section of the print and by time i'm done i should be at or under the total exposure.
This could be totally the wrong way to do it, it is limiting for sure, but i found it the easiest way to figure it out in my head.

It's not wrong. It's just that the percentages help in visualizing. A 10% increase looks really different than a 20% increase, but each 20% increase looks the same - no matter whether your base exposure is 20 seconds or 120 seconds. Until you get used to how things react, mark both! (20% = 3 seconds)

Split grade printing is something i am yet to delve into. I'm waiting for some books to arrive at the library that should hopefully help me there.

I didn't say anything about split grade printing did I? (Mick did). Although I recommend it highly, I think it can't hurt for you to walk a bit before you run. The same goes for f-stop printing, which I also recommend highly.

It's normal to get threw bucket loads of paper while learning right?! I've almost burned my way threw a 25 sheet pack just trying to do 2 prints!

Not only is it normal, it is a good thing. If you are concerned about cost (who isn't?), you might try doing a few more smaller prints, and a few more test strips. In any event, your darkroom's waste bin is often the most useful tool in the room.

Hope you are having fun.

jimjm · Mar 30, 2017

I think you've made some good improvements to the straight image. I do agree that the building on the left was maybe dodged a bit too long, but you did a good job overall of balancing your adjustments with the image so that the burning and dodging doesn't appear obvious. Your skills will improve with practice, and soon you'll be surprised at how dramatically you can alter an image to suit your vision. For me, the challenging part has always been figuring out the whole print manipulation scheme that the image might need. I often make straight test prints of promising images and stick then on a display board where I can ponder them and try to figure out my "plan of attack". Some images have taken months to finally figure out and others work out great as straight prints alone.

Don't know if your enlarger has a filter drawer or dial-in filtration on the head. Mine has a dichroic head and I can easily lengthen the print times by using dual filtration (combination of yellow and magenta) rather than single filtration (yellow or magenta). This gives me longer times for dodging and burning and also makes split-grade printing easier.

You're doing good, though. Your paper efficiency will get better. Keep at it!

John Wiegerink · Mar 31, 2017

What it boils down to is one thing and one thing only. That is............................Do you like your end results? When it come to my photography I only worry about pleasing one person and that person is me. If I make a print and I'm after a certain "look" I'll go for it until I can get it. I might waste a little paper or film, but I'm not pleased until I'm pleased. I have shot many weddings and the like for years and it was always to please somebody else. Now I only have to worry about me. So, the big question is, what do you think? Try sticking it on the wall and walking by looking at it for a week or two and see what and where you think you might improve. I remember reading Ansel Adams writing where he talked about reprinting scenes from many years earlier. His view or taste of the scene had changed over the years. So, even for him there was no "etched in stone", 100% proper, one way only to print a scene. If you think Ronnie is to light, print him darker. If you think he is to dark, print him lighter. I think you see where I'm coming from. Do it until YOU like it.

Craig75 · Mar 31, 2017

Looks very nice. The work on the scarf sets model off. I might have left the mirror as it was and not dodged it to make a darker frame around models hair or even burnt in mirror a little but left models reflection as it is for a slightly unwordly effect or maybe burnt in right side wall to act as a counterpoint to flaring left side but its very hard to ever judge anything from a glaring phone pic whilst viewing it on my own phone.looks really nice tho - the dodges all add to accentuating the photo - strong work.

bvy · Mar 31, 2017

John Wiegerink said:
What it boils down to is one thing and one thing only. That is............................Do you like your end results? When it come to my photography I only worry about pleasing one person and that person is me. If I make a print and I'm after a certain "look" I'll go for it until I can get it. I might waste a little paper or film, but I'm not pleased until I'm pleased. I have shot many weddings and the like for years and it was always to please somebody else. Now I only have to worry about me. So, the big question is, what do you think? Try sticking it on the wall and walking by looking at it for a week or two and see what and where you think you might improve. I remember reading Ansel Adams writing where he talked about reprinting scenes from many years earlier. His view or taste of the scene had changed over the years. So, even for him there was no "etched in stone", 100% proper, one way only to print a scene. If you think Ronnie is to light, print him darker. If you think he is to dark, print him lighter. I think you see where I'm coming from. Do it until YOU like it.

Well, yes and no. I agree there's only one person to please, and that's number one. I was pretty satisfied with my very first prints also, but with time and experience, I can look back and see flaws -- technical ones, mind you -- things that I would have been happy to have someone looking over my shoulder point out to me. I think that's all the OP is after here. What he's shared with us so far suggests that he's less interested in reimagining the scene in the darkroom, and more interested in sharpening his basic darkroom skills -- like learning how to dodge and burn in a not too heavy-handed way. I think we can help with that without cramping his style.

John Wiegerink · Mar 31, 2017

bvy said:
Well, yes and no. I agree there's only one person to please, and that's number one. I was pretty satisfied with my very first prints also, but with time and experience, I can look back and see flaws -- technical ones, mind you -- things that I would have been happy to have someone looking over my shoulder point out to me. I think that's all the OP is after here. What he's shared with us so far suggests that he's less interested in reimagining the scene in the darkroom, and more interested in sharpening his basic darkroom skills -- like learning how to dodge and burn in a not too heavy-handed way. I think we can help with that without cramping his style.

True, but over time he'll get what he needs to know by looking at others work, reading and asking. Yup, I guess that's what he is doing by starting this thread, but in the end it is he who decides I took my first picture, with my first camera 58 years ago and I'm still learning new tricks that help me. I'm also finding my moods/tastes change over time also. Maybe that's what make photography and darkroom work so fascinating?

Ko.Fe. · Mar 31, 2017

I like how it is done in the second example. From totally boring it went to totally art!
First example, IMO, to be art, not just well exposed snapshot, needs statue to be bright and rest is burned!

jvo · Apr 2, 2017

i might think that some other areas be dodged or burned than the ones you did. what gets the appropriate treatment is based upon what you are trying to achieve. i think without a clear intent the work isn't as effective as it could be.

the technique though is excellent - an obvious difference without heavy-handedness! for an early attempt it is great! really nice touch!

Opinions on my Attempt

TattyJJ

rpavich

bvy

TattyJJ

greg zinselmeier

tedr1

MattKing

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Mick Fagan

TattyJJ

Sirius Glass

MattKing

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jimjm

John Wiegerink

Craig75

bvy

John Wiegerink

Ko.Fe.

jvo

Opinions on my Attempt

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