Opinions? Formulary Wimberley WD2D+ Pyro Developer Liquid

Kino · Mar 27, 2006

I am thinking of ordering Formulary Wimberley WD2D+ Pyro Developer Liquid for my first foray into Pyro - opinons?

Thank you.

Frank W.

sanking · Mar 27, 2006

Kino said:
I am thinking of ordering Formulary Wimberley WD2D+ Pyro Developer Liquid for my first foray into Pyro - opinons?

Thank you.

Frank W.

Frank,

WD2D+ is an excellent developer. High acutance similar to PMK and Pyrocat-HD. It has been around a long time, since the 70s, in various reincarnations, mostly involving choice of restrainer. The current + formula is proprietary, so no one knows exactly what is in there, in contrast to PMK and Pyrocat-HD.

If you have not already done so please have a look at my article on Pyro Staining Devleopers at http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/PCat/pcat.html. There is some good history there about pyro staining developers. You might also want to obtain a copy of Gordon Hutchins' Book of Pyro. No one has all the truth about thee developers so it pays to learn as much as you can to best now how to fit your specific requirments to the developer.

Sandy

dancqu · Mar 27, 2006

sanking said:
WD2D+ is an excellent developer. The current + formula
is proprietary, so no one knows exactly what is in there, ...
If you have not already done so please have a look at my
article on Pyro ... Devleopers at www.unblinkingeye.com.
There is some good history there about pyro
staining developers. Sandy

I gave Wimberley's tale of WD2D+ a good read; an
article by him a few years ago in Photo Techniques.
His WDs are Carbonated-pyrogallol-metol brews.

He lists the ingredients for WD2D and his tweaked +
version. If I recall correctly the + is for Calgon, the
hexametaphosphate that is. It is the only ingredient
not common to both. I thought that strange as he
recommends only distilled water be used. Perhaps
his concern is with the chemistry itself.

For those that Home-Brew the formula for WD2D
is public domain. Dan

sanking · Mar 27, 2006

dancqu said:
He lists the ingredients for WD2D and his tweaked +
version. If I recall correctly the + is for Calgon, the
hexametaphosphate that is. It is the only ingredient
not common to both. I thought that strange as he
recommends only distilled water be used. Perhaps
his concern is with the chemistry itself.

For those that Home-Brew the formula for WD2D
is public domain. Dan

My speculation is that the + is for EDTA to get better sequestering.

By the, if you choose to mix the WD2D and decide to add the + as EDTA, use the alkaline (tetra?) rather than di 9 (acidic) version.

Sandy

Kino · Mar 27, 2006

Thank you Sanking and Dancqu for your opinions and information. I will be ordering the Photographers Formulary liquid version to get started, so I will note the suggestions on "rolling my own" for later.

Thanks for the link to your article, Sandy! I shall read it in detail tonight.

Strangely enough, I DO have some experience with printing Pyro negatives, just not my own and they are silent motion picture negatives from the 'aughts and teens of last Century. I soon learned to carefully check for that characteristic stain, because my normal densities would go out the window suddenly on various shots within a motion picture negative. Invariably, they turned out to be pyro or other staining developer negatives that looked thin but took about 5 to 8 trims (0.025d lux) more exposure (depending upon end gamma) than a similar scene developed in what I assume was a non-staining developer. Of course, back then, cinematographers were responsible for developing their own film at the end of each day, so it depended upon who was shooting as to what soup they used. The pyro motion picture negatives, and I have timed and printed a few from Billy Bitzer (DW Griffith's cameraman) were stunning.

dancqu · Mar 27, 2006

sanking said:
My speculation is that the + is for EDTA to get
better sequestering. By the, if you choose to mix the
WD2D and decide to add the + as EDTA, use the alkaline
(tetra?) rather than di 9 (acidic) version. Sandy

EDTA, that rings a louder bell. Of course we do not
know how much. I think it is the salt of a weak acid
so could act as a ph modifier and buffer were it in
some amount. Dan

jim appleyard · Mar 27, 2006

I tried WD2D+ about 2 years ago and found it to be excellent, very forgiving. I never used distilled water, only tap and got very printable negs. My guess is that distilled water is recommended as a "safety net" for the creator of the formula as tap water can vary a great deal around the world. It's good standard to use.

I also did not agaitate the way Mr. Wimberly suggests. I agitated for the correct amount of time/minute, but only did it once/min.

Kino · Mar 27, 2006

Yikes! Why is the TF4 Fix so expensive, or does it just seem so in relation to the pyro developer? Is it pure Thio?

jim appleyard · Mar 27, 2006

TF-4 uses 60% ammonium thiosulfate; a liquid. It cannot be kept in a dry powder state and a good part of your cost is shipping liquid from Montana to Ohio. It is good stuff, however.

You can also mix your own version, TF-3. TF-3 will not last as long as 4, and you still have to pay to ship a gallon of liquid amm. thio across the country. The formula is in Anchell's "Darkroom Cookbook".

Also in the "Cookbook" is a formula for an alkaline fixer made from sodium thio. Sod. thio comes in a crystal form and is cheaper to ship. It is slower than TF-3-4 and does not last as long.

Kino · Mar 27, 2006

jim appleyard said:
TF-4 uses 60% ammonium thiosulfate; a liquid. It cannot be kept in a dry powder state and a good part of your cost is shipping liquid from Montana to Ohio. It is good stuff, however.(snip)

Jim, thanks for that information.

Your posting jogged a memory of a motion picture processing tech once telling me that ammonium thiosulfate can be rejuvenated after silver has been recovered (reclaimed) and as long as the temperature of the process does not cook the fix and produce sulfides and ruin it, but I don't remember the actual process he detailed.

Of course, he was speaking of 500 to 1000 gallons of fix at a time, so it might not be an economical process for a small darkroom, but it bears investigation I think.

sanking · Mar 27, 2006

TF-3 is a good fixer that you can mix yourself.

Also consider Ryuji's Non-Acid Fixing Bath, which I recommend highly because of the lower working pH compared to TF-3.

Concentrated Stock

800ml of 60% ammonium thiosulfate
60g sodium sulfite
20g sodium metabisulfite
Water to make one liter
Dilute 1:4 for working solution.

Sandy

noseoil · Mar 28, 2006

Kino, Sandy is too modest! Try his pyrocat-hd for your first trip into pyro and you will enjoy it. I started this suff a few years ago with PMK and got very good results, but it has a few down sides. You will have muddy shadows and spend a fair amount of time with the lights off while agitating every 15 seconds.

With pyrocat you can use regular, minimat agitation or, for the truly lazy, stand development. No uneven staining and full shadow detail with great micro-contrast (yes, that is a real word to describe good shadows).

Haven't tried the WD2D types, but I'm pleased with pyrocat. Would be my firsty try for developers if I had to start over. tim

P.S. Enjoyed your brutal self appraisal of the shot in the gallery. Don't worry, you are doing well for LF, just hang tough and it will get better. A moaning chair in the corner with a dunce hat is what I use in my darkroom.

dancqu · Mar 28, 2006

jim appleyard said:
Also in the "Cookbook" is a formula for an alkaline
fixer made from sodium thio. Sod. thio comes in a
crystal form and is cheaper to ship. It is slower than
TF-3-4 and does not last as long.

All off-the shelf-fixers and very nearly all of
the Home-Brew formulas include ph modifiers and
preservatives. All are one-size-fits-all formulations in
that they can be in and out many times from the tank
or tray and bottle. Due to their in-use concentration
they can be loaded up with a lot of silver and
the halides which tag along.

That's the story of fixers. Then there's the story of
the film and paper using those fixers. One more
is the after math, washing that mix of
fix and all all out. Dan

Kino · Mar 28, 2006

Everyone, again, thank you for the wealth of advice!

Noseoil; I too after reading Sandy's article, thought Pyrocat might be the better bet to start with and your recommendation caps it, so I will be changing directions toward using it and leaving the ABC and WD2D+ out of the mix until I get some more experience in the matter. Although, until I get my shooting process under control, it hardly matters...

Thanks on the Gallery stuff; I know all too well about that dunce chair, unfortunately, and have added a hair-shirt for good measure! I have, however, a thick skull and am dogged if nothing else, so thanks for the encouragement! Maybe I can shoot something like you in the future (I hope).

Sandy, thanks for the TF-3 formula and Jim for the info on TF-2. I checked out the Darkroom Cookbook from the library and will price out the raw chemistry to see what would work best for me.

I know nothing about alkaline fixers, so this will be interesting.

Opinions? Formulary Wimberley WD2D+ Pyro Developer Liquid

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