Opening Stops, Lose Depth of Field?

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superjoe

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I'm slowly learning how to use the zone system, and while I understand the point of everything, I always see people telling me to open one or two stops for this or for that...How does one use the zone system method without altering the aperture?

I've just been changing the exposure time accordingly and leaving the aperture where I want it. Are they inter-changeable?

I have a feeling this is a ridiculously silly question, oh well.
 

noblebeast

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You basically have it right: when discussing exposure a 'stop' can be an actual f-stop, or the shutter speed. Example: you meter something for 1/30th at f/22 - if you shoot it at 1/15th you have overexposed by 1 stop.

Joe
 
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superjoe

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Cool. So with depth of field out of mind...will the exposure change if I raise the shutter speed vs. raising the aperture? Are they exactly inter-changeable or is it kind of an estimate?
 

david b

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Hey Joe,
the zone system rule of thumb is

"expose for the shadows and develop for the highlights"

So when you point your meter at a shadow, you will need to stop down. The meter measures for zone V. You will probably want your shadows at zone III. To do so, you have to stop down two stops.

The same happens when photographing snow. When you point the meter at snow, it measures it at zone V. In order to make it white, you will have to open up two stops.

You can open up or stop down with either the aperture or the shutter speed. Since I always use a tripod and slow film, I prefer to alter my shutter speed so that I do not affect what is in focus.

Also, have a look at my take on developing film.

Click here.

Good luck. I hope this helps.

Welcome to APUG and Happy Holidays.
 

bdial

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Generally speaking, they are interchangeable. Each change in shutter speed, or aperture changes the light reaching the film by 1/2 or *2. You may find it worthwhile to test by making a series of exposures at each shutter speed/ aperture combination. The resulting negatives should show even density with each other. Any that are lighter or darker than the others indicate a fast or slow shutter (most likely).
 
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And also, Joe, just as each successive Shutter speed is either a doubling or a halving of the duration the shutter is open, each successive aperture setting is either a doubling or halving of the geometric AREA of the aperture. So any adjustment made either doubles or halves exposure whether it is an adjustment in shutter speed or in aperture.
 

MattKing

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Generally speaking, they are interchangeable. Each change in shutter speed, or aperture changes the light reaching the film by 1/2 or *2. You may find it worthwhile to test by making a series of exposures at each shutter speed/ aperture combination. The resulting negatives should show even density with each other. Any that are lighter or darker than the others indicate a fast or slow shutter (most likely).

Joe:

This is what people are referring to when they talk about "reciprocity".

It applies over a wide range of values, but not universally. People who use telescopes to take photographs of stars have to worry about this (because the light is so dim) but if the light levels are reasonably normal, this works like a charm.

As you begin to get comfortable with this, the creative possibilities reveal themselves (adjusting aperture for depth of field, or shutter speed for motion blur, or lack of it, for instance).

Matt
 

copake_ham

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Being "old school" I am very comfortable with the f/stop v. shutter speed ratio - and the creative opportunities etc.

But I still keep scratching my head over using "EV"....?
 

BrianShaw

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EV is simple - it is an index for a particular exposure value (amount of light, basically). The same creative opportunities exist since once an EV is set, any set of shutter speed and aperture can be chosen... and you'll know that whatever you choose within that EV will yield the same exposure.
 

copake_ham

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EV is simple - it is an index for a particular exposure value (amount of light, basically). The same creative opportunities exist since once an EV is set, any set of shutter speed and aperture can be chosen... and you'll know that whatever you choose within that EV will yield the same exposure.

Huh?

Thanks, but ...

I thought I was on your Ignore list? :confused:
 

bdial

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EV is just a way of combining the shutter speed and f/stop into one number, going up or down one EV gives you 1/2 or double the exposure. Hasselblads, for example, have an EV scale in addition to the f/stop and shutter speed scales, and the controls are locked together so you can automagically get EV equivalent combinations. Unless you have a camera that has an EV scale, I'm not sure that it's terribly useful.

As for reciprocity, it refers to a tendency of a photographic emulsion to loose sensitivity at very low light levels, so you must increase the exposure beyond what you may have metered or calculated to compensate. More specifically, the emulsion's response to light is linear at a broad range of light levels, but not a at very low, or very high levels.

The test I was speaking of would be to make a meter reading of a scene to determine a proper exposure, then make negatives at all the equivalent shutter speed, f/stop combinations the camera would accommodate. Besides helping you understand the concepts in graphic terms, it highlights depth of field, and any inconsistencies in the shutter. For example, you meter a scene in bright sunlight at 125/sec and f/16 using ISO 125 film, and make exposures at 125-f16, 250-f/11, 500-f/8, 1000-f5.6, 60-f/22, etc. Doing it in shade, or perhaps with a slower film would probably give you a more interesting result though.
 

copake_ham

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You seemed so, ummmm, needy. :smile:

Well, you can forget the Hassey - I gifted to someone more faithful to me....myself! :wink:

Merry Christmas Eve from "not so cold tonight" Copake.....
 

BrianShaw

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If you have a light meter that reads out EV, you should try it on that Hassy. Fiddling with it for just a few minutes should make it quite understandable. If you have a CF lens, the EV doesn't lock like it did on the older Compur-shuttered lenses. There is a lock button that must be held down as you rotate the shutter speed and aperture rings to keep the EV locked.

Enjoy that Hassy. It might be better for you to keep it... I don't think I'd be able to control myself if I had two.

Glad to hear it isn't that cold tonight. Merry Christmas!
 

Chuck_P

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I'm slowly learning how to use the zone system, and while I understand the point of everything, I always see people telling me to open one or two stops for this or for that...How does one use the zone system method without altering the aperture?

I've just been changing the exposure time accordingly and leaving the aperture where I want it. Are they inter-changeable?

I have a feeling this is a ridiculously silly question, oh well.


I won't add to the other answers you've gotten, but it's not a rediculous queastion at all as noone is born already knowing this stuff and anyone who knows it at some point had to learn it. That's what this forum is for.

Chuck
 

noseoil

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George, E.V. (exposure value) is basically the measure of how much ambient light there is available in a scene. It isn't contrast, range of light values or anything else. The pentax spot meter is calibrated to give an E.V. reading. In Tucson there is usually about an E.V. of "14" or better in full sun in the morning. This is like pointing your camera at a gray card in full sunlight and using the meter to get a reading. That is your basic exposure, but how you interpret it or use the information can vary with the scene and other considerations. tim
 

Dan Henderson

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As for reciprocity, it refers to a tendency of a photographic emulsion to loose sensitivity at very low light levels, so you must increase the exposure beyond what you may have metered or calculated to compensate. More specifically, the emulsion's response to light is linear at a broad range of light levels, but not a at very low, or very high levels.

What you are describing is actually reciprocity failure. Reciprocity is simply the relationship between apertures, shutter speeds, and for that matter, film speed. Doubling one of them (changing by one full f/stop or shutter speed setting, or using a film with 1 full "stop" of different sensitivity) and halving either of the other will produce the same exposure.
 

CBG

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Not a silly question at all. It gets complicated fast. Bear with me while I lay out some basics. I suspect you know most of these, but it's all pertinent.

When you hear about "exposure", what's really being talked about is the total amount of light hitting a light sensitive medium - film, paper, sensor...

For the moment, assume we're refering to entirely average conditions: an arbitrarily chosen film with, let's say, medium speed, or sensitivity to light, and trying to record an average subject under plenty of light. For people new to working out their own exposures, the basic rule is that with a given film, to render the same subject the same way, the film will need the same amount of light hitting it regardless of whether the scene is lit more or less. (yes, there are exceptions, but under ordinary conditions they can be put off a while.)

And as long as I'm simplifying to get some basic points across, I'l make the assumption that there is just one correct exposure for a given scene. Later you will discover I'm full quite wrong with these simplifications, but they'll help get things clearly stated for the moment.

Exposure is always the result of a combination of the rate with which light hits the film (or sensor) and the length of time the light does so. So, you have two basic controls, one for the rate light flows, and one for duration of illumination of the film.

Controlling the rate light hits the film.
The rate with which light hits the film is determined by the opening of the lens, variously called the f/stop or aperture or just opening. Basically if the diaphragm is more open, the lens lets light through faster, and if the lens diaphragm is closed down to a smaller opening, less light will pass through per unit of time. The openings are usually listed in a series.
f/1, f/1.4, f/2, f/2.8, f/4, f/5.6, f/8, f/11, f/16, f/22, f/32, f/45, f/64, f/90 ...

Most lenses offer only a limited portion of this range due to physical, design and cost limitations. My first normal lens for 35mm photography went from f/2 to f/16, quite typical.

The key here is that each step jumps you to half or double the rate of exposure of the last. With apertures, the small numbers correspond, perversely, to a big opening and a lot of light coming through, so f/2 lets in lots more light than f/16, 32 times as much per unit of time.

Controlling the time light light hits the film.
The time light goes through the lens to hit the film is generally controlled by the "shutter" which does pretty much what the name implies, opening and shutting. For the most part, it's an all or nothing operation, either open or shut. Expert leaf shutter users will note I am making one more simplification here, again, for the benefit of a direct explanation.

The time intervals are generally a series like: 1/1000 sec, 1/500, 1/250, 1/125, 1/60, 1/30, 1/15, 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, 1 second, which was the series that was available on my first camera. The key here is, again, that each step jumps you to half or double the rate of exposure of the last. With shutter speeds, the change in exposure is directly proportional to the tiem the shutter is open, so that a one second exposure will be twice a half second exposure all other things being equal.

Barring fairly old equipment, the fstops and shutter speeds avaiable to you will be at least similar to some portion of what I have listed above.

To get a given exposure (total amount of light) you'll need a lot of light briefly, or a slower flow of light for longer, or a middling rate for a middling time. Your meter will generally indicate some combination of fstop and time, based on the brightness of the scene and the responsiveness or speed of the film.

But sometimes you will want a different shutter speed or aperture for creative purposes - how to convert from one set to another?

Think of it as a staircase.

An example - your meter says f16 and 1/1000 of a second
If you are at the right exposure at, say, f16 and 1/1000 of a second - and you want a different f stop or shutter speed - you are going up the staircase with, say, f stops, to f11, but to keep the exposure constant, you must come back down with shutter speed.

Going from f16 to f11 will double your exposure since the lens opening gets bigger letting in more light, so you'll need to cut the exposure time in half to compensate. Half of a 1/1000 of a second would be 1/2000 od a second.

Your new exposure setting in this example is f11 at 1/2000th.

The key is that each step in the series jumps you to half or double the exposure.

So:
If you go one step up one, go down one step on the other.
If you go two steps up one, go down two steps on the other.
If you go one half step up one, go down one half step on the other.
And so on.

Whether you fiddle with f/stops or shutter speed, each full step doubling or halving of exposure is reffered to as one stop, up or down.

The confusing part is the f stops, since the small numbers make for greater exposure, and the big numbers mean lesser exposure.

A more general example:
Imagine two tape measures. One has f/stops and the other exposure times. Each increment on the tape is - say - an inch.

I'm going to write it out horizontally to save space:
One tape is f/stops - 1, 1.4, 2, 2.8, 4, 5.6, 8, 11, 16, 22, 32, 45, 64, 90 ....
at each step right exposure is reduced to half.

One tape is exposure times - 1/1000, 1/500, 1/250, 1/125, 1/60, 1/30, 1/15, 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, 1, 2sec, 4sec, 8sec ... at each step right exposure is doubled.

If you know any combination of these is the right exposure, line the two tapes up side by side, but, here's the vital part, match up the correct exposure combination side by side.

Now I'm going to use an arbitrary example where your meter says f5.6 at 1/125th, and line up the tapes vertically for clarity.

f/stop vs exposure time
1.4 1/2000
1 1/1000
2.8 1/500
4 1/250
5.6 1/125*
8 1/60
11 1/30
16 1/15
22 1/8

*note that here we've set f/5.6 and 1/125 side by side - this lines up everything else!

We already know f/5.6, 1/125th is good.
The tapes also tell us f/4 at 1/250th works too.
and f/2.8 at 1/500
and f/8 at 1/60
and f/11 at 1/30th
etc.

All the side by side pairings will provide the same exposure.

Now, here's the payoff that may clarify your query. If you want to change the exposure to more or less for creative or technical ends, you can deliberately step up or down the staircase by whatever number or steps or stops you wish. Lets say you want one stop more exposure, slide the tapes so that 5.6 is matched with 1/60th. Any of the side by side combinations will give you one stop overexposure. To get one stop under, match 5.6 with 1/250th. Again, any of the side by side combinations will give you one stop underexposure. Move the tapes less or more to get a half stop or more than a stop.

It's good you're looking at the zone system. It provides an unequalled way of understanding many aspects of exposure.

Hope that helps.

Best,

C
 
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