Open note to paper manufacturers

Photo Engineer

Subscriber
Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
29,018
Location
Rochester, NY
Format
Multi Format
Today I went to the pharmacy to buy a jar of Noxzema skin cream, something used by my family for years. It is totally different, containing no phenol. So, I checked with Chloraseptic throat losenges, and they have no phenol.

I asked the druggist and she said that in the US, phenol is banned now in all consumer products. Well, photographic papers made by Schoeller contain phenol. If you open a bag of Ilford MGIV paper, you smell it strongly coming from the open bag.

All raw paper samples from Schoeller that I have that I coat on contain phenol as well and my darkroom reeks of phenol when I coat.

Considering that Lister used it as one of the original anticeptics and it was sprayed into the air in early operating theaters, I wonder why this happened here in the US, but nevertheless I wonder what impact it has on the manufacture and sale of photographic papers with phenol in the US. I also wonder if it is banned in the EU.

Maybe Simon could reply or one of the APUG members who might know about this.

Thanks.

PE
 

jstraw

Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2006
Messages
2,699
Location
Topeka, Kans
Format
Multi Format
Don't tell me...phenol can be somehow used in the production of methamphetamine. Right?
 

Dave Krueger

Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2006
Messages
714
Location
Huntsville, Alabama
Format
Multi Format
jstraw said:
Don't tell me...phenol can be somehow used in the production of methamphetamine. Right?
Click to expand...
Either that or someone who manufactures a competing product stands to gain from the banning of phenol. It isn't for nothing that Washington DC is surrounded by lobbyists exchanging campaign contributions for favors.
 
OP
OP

Photo Engineer

Subscriber
Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
29,018
Location
Rochester, NY
Format
Multi Format
No, I don't think so. I believe it was actually banned as it is considered a poison as I understand it. It can only be used under a hood so a compounding druggist in the US can use it if they use proper safety measures, but then the item would probably have to be prescription only. I don't know the details.

It could probably be made into an explosive with the right synthetic sequence, but IDK as I have not searched for any details on what all can be made from it, there are so many possibilities. Picric acid, a powerful explosive, comes to mind. It is trinitro phenol, and is roughly similar in structure to trinitro toluene (TNT) with -OH being replaced by -CH3.

Phenol is the starting point for many synthetic organic chemicals.

PE
 

aldevo

Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2004
Messages
949
Location
Cambridge, M
Format
Multi Format

A quick search on the web did not reveal any indication of Phenol being banned in the USA. I also searched on C6H5OH with the same result.

The FDA, however, did impose extremely strict guidelines on the amount of Phenol that was permissible in OTC drugs back in the 1990s.

It's been a loooonnngggg time since I tackled organic chemistry, but isn't there a class of checmials known as "Phenols" (e.g. salicylates)? Since they are present in most food, afaik, this ban may be hard to stomach...
 
OP
OP

Photo Engineer

Subscriber
Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
29,018
Location
Rochester, NY
Format
Multi Format
Phenols include Cresols, Xylols, Creosote, Picrates and a lot of others. As I said, it is the starting point for a lot of synthesis.

Search C6H6O, as that would be the IUPAC method of designating it.

Thymol is also a phenol derivative.

The point is not that phenol and its derivatives are banned, it is phenol itself. I discussed with the druggist whether Thymol was banned and she said no. It is the active ingredient in Listerine. It may be just OTC drug products, but she said that they cannot even get it. You have to go to an organic chemical supply house and have a certified fume cabinet to handle it legally.

It just naturally led to the question of what this does to photo products that contain phenol. There may be no effect whatsoever.

Phenol is not used in any Kodak product or any Fuji product AFAIK. Kodak used thymol a lot. It was considered safer to handle.

PE
 

David A. Goldfarb

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Sep 7, 2002
Messages
19,974
Location
Honolulu, HI
Format
Large Format
Wait a minute, Ron. Does this mean I'll have to start stockpiling film, paper, AND Laphroaig?
 
OP
OP

Photo Engineer

Subscriber
Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
29,018
Location
Rochester, NY
Format
Multi Format
Well, I'm not aware of Laphroaig containing phenols of any sort. Fusel oils yes and esters and ketones, but no phenols unless you count the resins from the oak casks.



PE
 

David A. Goldfarb

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Sep 7, 2002
Messages
19,974
Location
Honolulu, HI
Format
Large Format

eclarke

Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2004
Messages
1,950
Location
New Berlin,
Format
ULarge Format
WAY O.T...The comedian, Ron White, is nicknamed "Tater Salad" and people send him potato salad. In retrospect he says he should have nicknamed himself "25 year old scotch"...EC
 

Kobin

Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2005
Messages
237
Format
Multi Format
They still sell CamphoPhenique don't they?

K.
 
OP
OP

Photo Engineer

Subscriber
Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
29,018
Location
Rochester, NY
Format
Multi Format
K.

Good point. I forgot to look. And, don't forget that this may be a New York State thing. That is why the post. I'm trying to find out whats going on.

PE
 

pentaxuser

Member
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
20,101
Location
Daventry, No
Format
35mm
Photo Engineer said:
Well, I'm not aware of Laphroaig containing phenols of any sort. Fusel oils yes and esters and ketones, but no phenols unless you count the resins from the oak casks.



PE
Click to expand...

Just as a matter of interest, what do you guys pay for a bottle of this particular "water of life".

Here a 75 cl. bottle is about £20-22 so about $40 to $44. It depends on which malt is the week's bargain buy in the supermarket.

pentaxuser
 

Mark Layne

Subscriber
Joined
Jun 9, 2003
Messages
967
Location
Nova Scotia
Format
Medium Format
Photo Engineer said:
Well, I'm not aware of Laphroaig containing phenols of any sort. Fusel oils yes and esters and ketones, but no phenols unless you count the resins from the oak casks.



PE
Click to expand...
I used to watch fusel oil being fractioned off in a rum still. Guess I'll have to go and peruse that 5" thick book of my fathers entitled 'The Essential Oils'.
 
OP
OP

Photo Engineer

Subscriber
Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
29,018
Location
Rochester, NY
Format
Multi Format
Mark, I believe it is a mixture of amyl alcohol and some esters. I would have to look it up. I first heard it while in college and I went to see "Forbidden Planet". I looked it up back then, and never thought about it much till now when I flashed back to it.

As for Campho Phenique, I have no idea if it is still on shelves here. I certainly ddin't see any at one store. However, even if it is available it does not mean that it still contains phenol. After all, Noxzema is available but does not contain one ingredient, phenol.

PE
 
OP
OP

Photo Engineer

Subscriber
Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
29,018
Location
Rochester, NY
Format
Multi Format
eddym said:
PE... have you ever heard of parachlorometaxylenol?
Click to expand...

To what end?

It is a phenol with 1 chlorine and one methyl group. It could have any of at least 2 other names depending on your perspective in orienting the ring, but there is an IUPAC perferred name.

You could say that it is a chloro cresol for example. I did work with a number of these compounds. This particular one can also act as a cyan coupler IIRC, but not a very good one though.

PE
 

Kobin

Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2005
Messages
237
Format
Multi Format
I found this item re: INOES Phenol via the great Google:

Construction of Phenolchemie's 400KT phenol and acetone plant
in the Theodore Industrial area was the major step forward in our growing commitment to the Americas. The site offers many advantages
with its excellent rail, highway, and waterway transportation infrastructure.
Key business partnerships such as Alabama Power's cogeneration plant which provides steam to the plant and the Alabama State Docks Liquid Bulk Terminal (adjacent to our facility) allows us to utilize anything from river barges to Panamax-size ships for raw materials and products that help us to serve our customer's needs cost effectively.

The plant has been operational since early 2000. Although the ownership and name changed
in 2001, INEOS Phenol's management philosophy of dedication and commitment
to its customers, its employees, the environment, and the local community has held steadfast. The plant was constructed with world-class safety and environmental control systems.
INEOS Phenol and our employees support education, civic activities, and environmental awareness with active participation in programs such as Partners in Education,
Coastal Clean-Up, Junior Achievement and United Way.

This plant services the NAFTA, South American, and Asian markets with shipments via railcar, truck, barge and ship. We maintain an extensive IT based, logistics infrastructure including
an on-line railcar tracking system that allows our customers to stay current on in-bound shipments. Our quality system is certified to the ISO-9001:2000 standards as a testament
to our operational philosophy of ensuring the right quality the first time all the time.

According to their website, the plant has certification until 2010. Theodore is on US 90 just south of Mobile, AL.

K.
 

Struan Gray

Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2004
Messages
914
Location
Lund, Sweden
Format
Multi Format
Phenol is poisonous, and is easily absorbed through the skin. I can see several reasons why a skin cream manufacturer would want to eliminate it, but consumer liability and the health of their workers are usually the two biggies.

Phenol polymerisation is the foundation of bakelite plastics. A classic chemistry demonstration from the days when children were allowed to puddle mercury in their hands was the polymerisation of phenol and methanal to make pink bakelite. Get the mixture and temperature right and the reactants explode to make a frothing pink mass: the so-called 'pink-pudding' experiment.

Those were the days.
 
OP
OP

Photo Engineer

Subscriber
Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
29,018
Location
Rochester, NY
Format
Multi Format
Methanal, also called formaldehyde......

Yes, phenol + formalin made the first commercially available plastic which was blackened with carbon and used for heat proof handles on pots and pans and just about everything else such as radio knobs during WWII.

PE
 

AgX

Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2007
Messages
29,973
Location
Germany
Format
Multi Format
“Those were the days”…
(I still remember doing this experiment in chemical class. Am I really that old??)

Well, is that experiment nowadays banned from schools?
 

nworth

Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2005
Messages
2,228
Location
Los Alamos,
Format
Multi Format
The lobbyist thing may be close to the truth. Someone or some group raises an alarm, which has some small basis in truth. Maybe there is a law suit. And something that was regarded as safe suddenly becomes dangerous, despite a long history to the contrary. Not only that, but more dangerous, related things remain regarded as safe. Supposedly, NIOSH and the FDA base their recommendations on scientific research, usually on an extensive review of the literature which is sometimes supplemented by experiment, but when lawyers get involved, all bets are off. Another aspect of this is that an item may be banned in one application but still permitted in another which actually results in more exposure than the banned one. Go figure.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Menu
Log in
Register
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…