One or two fixing baths with alkaline fixer

Most of the time I heard that it is recommended to use two fixing baths for fiber paper. However master printers like Tim Rudman, seem to use only one fixing bath?

Also now I found out that in the product description of my fixer (acid) it says recommendation: two fixing baths with dilution X, but the alkaline fixer doesn't say anything about two fix baths.

Can I just use one bath or is it still recommended to use two baths?

Thanks

I never use 2 baths for fixing whether either acid or alkaline. I just make sure that I fix to completion with a test.

PE

Photo Engineer said:

I never use 2 baths for fixing whether either acid or alkaline. I just make sure that I fix to completion with a test.

PE

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I have to respectfully disagree withPE on this one.The two -bath fixing method provides a more secure way to a complete fix andes;I recommend doing this for acid and alkaline fixers.The idea is to fix strong and fast;This way fixer has less of a chance to get deeply into the fibers,where it becomes difficult to was it out,although it is easier to wash out alkaline fixer.

RalphLambrecht said:

I have to respectfully disagree withPE on this one.The two -bath fixing method provides a more secure way to a complete fix andes;I recommend doing this for acid and alkaline fixers.The idea is to fix strong and fast;This way fixer has less of a chance to get deeply into the fibers,where it becomes difficult to was it out,although it is easier to wash out alkaline fixer.

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Thanks! What's the recommended washing time for acid vs alkaline?

Jessestr said:

Thanks! What's the recommended washing time for acid vs alkaline?

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acid fixer is followed by HCA prior to washing;alkaline fixer is not.washing after acid fixer easily takes twice as long without HCAacid fix with HCA washes about as easy as alkaline without.appropriate washing time after either fix is determined through a test.I was FB for about an hour.

For fibre based papers unless the fixer is very fresh 2 bath fixing gives the best results, it's also more economic. I use two baths and a Hypo clear, sodium sulphite solution, regardless of whether the fixer is alkali or marginally acidic like Hypam and Ilford or Kodak Rapid fixer.

Ian

The difference in opinion here comes from both the change in paper (fiber predominant when I started in 1964) and the modification with written material on the subject (back then, 10 minutes was not considered excessive).

When Ilford came out and said that 45 seconds was adequate for their Multigrade RC, I gasped with joy. Actually, I have done tests (only ONE fixer, not two in succession). Paper, if it is dry (neither developed nor fixed) will start to turn brown after about five minutes in strong room light. Well, I tried fixing multiple tiny pieces of Multigrade RC paper for: 10 seconds, 20 seconds, 30 seconds, 45 seconds, 60 seconds, etc. Rinsed, then I left each piece of paper in strong light. Starting with the ones fixed for 30 seconds there was no change in the white base. Assuming incorporation of a conservative 'safety factor', the 45 second minimum offered by Ilford seems good. When I tried this test with old Kodabromide paper (fiber) the necessary fix times were at least twice as long.

Papers changed through the years, as did the determination by the manufacturers for how long to fix. Ten minutes, even five minutes, were probably ALWAYS too long, but, perhaps, the long times were promulgated for reasons of conservatism and maybe even to mitigate the perception that many workers were sloppy and did not change fix baths as frequently as they should have. Long fix times also carry a possible, tiny advantage, as they just start to erode (almost imperceptibly) the threshold density. That threshold density can include a very tiny bit of base fog which removal thereof can actually improve the print quality. When I was fourteen, I left a slightly overexposed print in the fixer when my mother called me for lunch. (I did not know what I was doing or that I should not have been doing that.) After lunch, I came back to the darkroom and was stunned to see the most beautiful tones I had ever witnessed in that 'overfixed' print. Point made.

Of course, 'two baths' is more secure, and allows more leeway, especially with regard to a bit of sloppiness. But that security is unnecessary if you follow recommendations exactingly, as per manufacturer. - David Lyga

If the fixer happens to be TF-5, it might help to remember that Photo Engineer actually co-designed it .

FB papers of today are much more dense than those of yesteryear. Therefore, Ralph is right when he refers to old or off brand papers, but not with RC or top line FB papers.

Also, I never use HCA or any other post fix bath. I do test for retained hypo and Silver.

And yes, I helped design TF-5 optimizing it for SINGLE fix baths to save room in the darkroom and due to the high capacity and wash rate. I've gotten some fixers that fix in 15 seconds using RC paper. I have 5+ years of keeping to prove image stability.

PE

I suspect Tim Rudman felt a slight shudder by your post. During my time with him at a workshop he was adamant about two fixing baths (although it was rapid fixer).

It doesn't matter what he or I think. What matters is what works for you. I've never used it in even the most critical situations for my own use.

PE

It's not really about acid or alkaline fixer, although alkaline fixer washes out a bit more easily. It's about fixer exhaustion. Silver salts build up in the fixer fairly quickly and they both inhibit fixing and cause washing problems. The two bath technique minimizes these problems. But if you are like me, you don't get into the darkroom every day, and you don't make dozens of prints at a time. For me, an single fixing bath works fine. I don't use it to anything near exhaustion, and I discard it often (usually after each session). Most fixers have a capacity of about 40 - 8x10 sheets per liter in a single bath setup. I seldom run half that many through a batch, so my fixer stays pretty far from exhaustion. If you push the limits, a two bath approach is more reliable.

I also don't use HCA. Most of the time I use RC paper, and I can wash it effectively in a reasonable time. When I do use FB paper, I just wash longer. I also wash very few sheets at a time - often only one. Contamination of the wash with fixer from new prints isn't a problem. But if you have to conserve water or if you are in a production environment, HCA can make sense. It makes washing easier and wash times shorter at the expense of another solution and processing step. You can then wash a good sized batch of prints in a commercial washer in a reasonable time and be ready for the next batch. Productivity! But that doesn't worry many of us.

I continue to use TF4 fixer for both films and papers, use it one-shot, with solution volume matched to paper volume per session. Then a really good washing (after toning). Gave up on things like double bath fixer and HCA long ago with no regrets. My time is more important than getting nitpicky over the cost of fixer.