One for MR. Mowrey--

ezwriter · Jun 28, 2012

Can i use Photo Flo to wash my dishes? ;>

lxdude · Jun 28, 2012

James in GA · Jun 28, 2012

Spot free dishs, I like.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Jun 28, 2012

You can wash your hair also

Vaughn · Jun 28, 2012

Of course, some variations are a bit toxic...I believe the Photo-flo600 is the worse.

nickrapak · Jun 28, 2012

Vaughn said:
Of course, some variations are a bit toxic...I believe the Photo-flo600 is the worse.

I believe that the 200 is not acutely toxic, but not sanitary (for dishwasher purposes) either. I know the 600 uses ethylene glycol, which is the same chemical they use in antifreeze, and about a tablespoon of this stuff requires hospitalization.

brianmquinn · Jun 28, 2012

Do not use this in an automatic dishwasher. The foam will be all over the kitchen floor.

Vaughn · Jun 28, 2012

nickrapak said:
I believe that the 200 is not acutely toxic, but not sanitary (for dishwasher purposes) either. I know the 600 uses ethylene glycol, which is the same chemical they use in antifreeze, and about a tablespoon of this stuff requires hospitalization.

I use the Photo-flow 2100 at the university (diluted to make a weaker "stock solution"). It uses the about same ingredients as the 200, I believe -- at least not the same glycol as the 600. A little bit of the 2100 on your hands will remove all oils, much to one's hands' distress.

Stock solution is 7oz of the 2100 to make one gallon. This is then used at 1 oz per gallon for a working solution.

eclarke · Jun 28, 2012

My brother in law attende RIT for four years and obtained his photo degree. He worked in the photo lab there to support himself and they used a drop of Ivory liquid dish soap instead of photo-flo.

Photo Engineer · Jun 28, 2012

ezwriter said:
Can i use Photo Flo to wash my dishes? ;>

Photo Flo is not a dish washing fluid. This is why I object to the use of dishsoaps as wetting agents for film.

There is a huge misunderstanding out there about these and other chemistry related items, promulgated by non-chemists.

I might add that you say Photo Flo, but there are 3 varieties (or perhaps 2 depending on what EK has cancelled since I last checked). Photo Flo 600 is very toxic and can kill you very painfully, but Photo Flo 200 is non-toxic. So, if you insist on using it, you better know your products!

This question has me on the horns of a dilemma as to whether to consider it very intelligent or the stupidest question I have read here!

Of course, one might say that there are no stupid questions, and my answer would be "I agree", but I would follow up by saying that there are quite a few inquisitive idiots!

PE

Vaughn · Jun 28, 2012

photoflo info

PHOTO-FLO Solutions are eye irritants. Wear adequate eye protection when mixing and using this product. Avoid contact with clothing or prolonged contact with skin.

PHOTO-FLO 600 Solution is harmful or fatal if swallowed.

PHOTO-FLO 2100 Solution causes eye burns.

lxdude · Jun 28, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
Photo Flo is not a dish washing fluid. This is why I object to the use of dishsoaps as wetting agents for film.

As Photo Flo is cheap enough and lasts a long time, I don't see the point in substituting dish soap. Why not just use the right thing?

This question has me on the horns of a dilemma as to whether to consider it very intelligent or the stupidest question I have read here!

Of course, one might say that there are no stupid questions, and my answer would be "I agree", but I would follow up by saying that there are quite a few inquisitive idiots!

PE

I took it to be intended as a joke, reversing the usual question.

I have a question of my own for you- I took a picture of a wheat field and it's full of grain! What can I do? For some reason I've had the same problem with pictures of old wooden boards.

Photo Engineer · Jun 28, 2012

Dish soap is an eye irritant as well and some can blind you! The Phtoflo family cannot blind you. The 600 and higher can kill you!

Dish soap is a detergent, whereas Photo Flo is a surfactant. Get over it and learn the difference!

PE

brianmquinn · Jun 28, 2012

FIRST respect PE. He knows more that I do but here is a point that I do not understand.

I'm a chemist and as far as I know Detergents and Surfactants are the same thing with different names. There are of course Anionic, Cationic and Zwitterionic detergents and they are chemically different. But in common terms I do not see where a generic detergent differs from a generic surfactant. If there is a difference please educate me.

nickrapak · Jun 28, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
Dish soap is a detergent, whereas Photo Flo is a surfactant. Get over it and learn the difference!

PE

Well, can I use it in the rinse aid dispenser in my dishwasher? That's a surfactant, isn't it?

Vaughn · Jun 28, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
Dish soap is an eye irritant as well and some can blind you! The Phtoflo family cannot blind you. The 600 and higher can kill you!

Dish soap is a detergent, whereas Photo Flo is a surfactant. Get over it and learn the difference!

PE

Correct me if I am wrong, but the Kodak info says only the 600 will kill you, the 200 will irritate your eyes and the 2100 can "cause eye burns" -- which I assume is another way of saying it can blind you. But I also assume that they are referring to the concentrate, not a working solution.

Hologram · Jun 29, 2012

brianmquinn said:
I'm a chemist and as far as I know Detergents and Surfactants are the same thing with different names. There are of course Anionic, Cationic and Zwitterionic detergents and they are chemically different. But in common terms I do not see where a generic detergent differs from a generic surfactant.

Perhaps the problem is not so much the particular surfactants/detergents but rather the auxiliary agents added to dish washing products: among which, oily ingredients for anti-foaming or skin protection.

Diapositivo · Jun 29, 2012

My poor ignorant self always thought that a detergent actually makes things clean, helping remove grease or other dirt, while a surfectant only helps water slide through a surface without forming drops which ultimately means leaving a salt mark on the surface.

If you use a surfectant to wash your dishes you obtain that water slides very well above all the oil and sauce which remain on the dish.

hrst · Jun 29, 2012

Diapositivo said:
If you use a surfectant to wash your dishes you obtain that water slides very well above all the oil and sauce which remain on the dish.

No, the surfactant reduces surface tension of the water -- this makes it slide well, but this also makes it slide INTO the stuff being removed. So, it really helps. This is why surfactants are included in detergents. You could say that it's the most important fundamental part of a detergent.

But that's still just one of the parts. Surfactant still does not allow mixing water and oil properly even though it helps the process. This is why enzymes are added that chop the oil. Dyes and fragrances are added too. These additional chemicals, as well as the wrong type of surfactant, can pose problems to film.

I think this is why a single, tested-for-film, pure surfactant is very different from a detergent, which is a mix of many surfactants, optimized for washing dishes, and other additives.

Photo Engineer · Jun 29, 2012

Photo Flo is quite different than a detergent used for dishes or clothes.

A detergent used for washing is an alkaline solution of an anionic (negatively charged) surfactant. It works to dissolve oils and minerals present on clothes and dishes. Extra ingredients such as fragrance and color can affect film by remaining behind. Emollients present for softening hands are probably not good either.

Photo Flo and other final rinse baths are mixtures of uncharged surfactants at neutral pH, which is best for the film! Anything other than this can harm the emulsion.

Photo Flo 600 is a poison at just about any dilution. It contains an ingredient that can damage your kidneys if ingested.

PE

M.A.Longmore · Jun 29, 2012

.
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot ? ? ?

Photo Engineer · Jun 29, 2012

Yeah, just like the old C22 and E4 stabilizer baths for color films (and papers). Except for the mercury!

PE

Sirius Glass · Jul 1, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
I might add that you say Photo Flo, but there are 3 varieties (or perhaps 2 depending on what EK has cancelled since I last checked). Photo Flo 600 is very toxic and can kill you very painfully, but Photo Flo 200 is non-toxic. So, if you insist on using it, you better know your products!

This question has me on the horns of a dilemma as to whether to consider it very intelligent or the stupidest question I have read here!

Of course, one might say that there are no stupid questions, and my answer would be "I agree", but I would follow up by saying that there are quite a few inquisitive idiots!

PE

So Photo Flo 200 can be ingested to clean out ones intestines, got it! Heck, it may even cure GAS, permanently!

Photo Engineer · Jul 1, 2012

Well, I said no such thing. Photo Flo 200 can certainly make you ill and it may even kill you, but it is not an overt poison like Photo Flo 600 which will kill you. And I am told that the death is slow and agonizing as it turns off your kidneys.

PE

tkamiya · Jul 1, 2012

How come 3X concentration makes a possible poison a definite fatal poison? I read there are difference in preservatives but I would think if it's a fatal one at 3x, then 1x would be just as dangerous....

One for MR. Mowrey--

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