ONDU: Frame Numbers

I Just got an ONDU last night and loaded a roll of Ilford 50 into it. Cranking was hard and got harder so I am assuming the film wasn't loaded square then I heard the click of film and the winder quickly went freewheeling with no movement on the supply know. I had never seen the arrow or a number go by either red window. I tried another roll of film and after cranking a while took the back off to see what was going on. It appears that the gray circles and numbers just aren't dark enough to show through the red plastic, at least to my old eyes. I am guessing that since Kodak uses yellow paper they will have black letters on it that will be easier to read. What brands of film will have numbers that are easily visible in the red window? And how for should you advance the arrow? There is no handy red triangle like there was in my Hasselblad magazine.

What model do you have?

Mine is the 6x12 multiformat

The new Kodak backing paper has much fainter numbers on a grey background. So you may wish to look for slightly older film.

So Kodak is still in the business of shooting themselves in the foot.
Thanks

MattKing said:

The new Kodak backing paper has much fainter numbers on a grey background. So you may wish to look for slightly older film.

Click to expand...

KC2PED said:

So Kodak is still in the business of shooting themselves in the foot.
Thanks

Click to expand...

There is only one backing paper supplier left in the industry, and the last batch supplied to Kodak created problems with inter reaction between T-Max 400, the darker ink that Kodak has traditionally used and (most likely) problems with exposure to heat in the now fragmented distribution system. So Kodak elected to go the route that Ilford was previously forced to take in order to avoid wrapper offset problems - they reduced the ink in the numbers.

One thing to note is that film loading is apparently the opposite of what you'd expect: new roll in the right, empty spool in the left. Advance right to left.

I did that and I can see frame numbers just fine (in 6x9 and 6x6 windows).

I have the film loaded right. There just isn't enough contrast between the numbers and the paper for me to see them through the plastic.

Kevin Harding said:

One thing to note is that film loading is apparently the opposite of what you'd expect: new roll in the right, empty spool in the left. Advance right to left.

I did that and I can see frame numbers just fine (in 6x9 and 6x6 windows).

Click to expand...

Kevin Harding said:

One thing to note is that film loading is apparently the opposite of what you'd expect: new roll in the right, empty spool in the left. Advance right to left.

I did that and I can see frame numbers just fine (in 6x9 and 6x6 windows).

Click to expand...

I loaded a film (Fuji NPC 160) the "normal" way and advance from left to right. No problems there and the frame numbers are easy to see through the red window.

MattKing said:

There is only one backing paper supplier left in the industry,

Click to expand...

Matt,
Where does that info comes from?
Kodak paper is whitish, no?
Foma backing paper is black.
Same manufacturer, did you say?

TheToadMen said:

I loaded a film (Fuji NPC 160) the "normal" way and advance from left to right. No problems there and the frame numbers are easy to see through the red window.

Click to expand...

Well, I'm glad to learn this!

TheToadMen said:

I loaded a film (Fuji NPC 160) the "normal" way and advance from left to right. No problems there and the frame numbers are easy to see through the red window.

Click to expand...

Kevin Harding said:

Well, I'm glad to learn this!

Click to expand...

Just ignore the arrows on top of the camera

Ricardo Miranda said:

Matt,
Where does that info comes from?
Kodak paper is whitish, no?
Foma backing paper is black.
Same manufacturer, did you say?

Click to expand...

From many of the discussions here on APUG involving Simon Galley, Harman/Ilford and the demise of their 220 products.

The "colours" on the backing paper are actually printed on it, so I expect they are printed to order.

Ah, ok Matt.
Perhaps Foma has a different supplier, perhaps not.
But, I've never had a problem with them.

If you really cannot resolve the problem of seeing the frame numbers then I would do this. Using one of the rolls already ruined load the camera but keep the back off, make a mark on the backing paper and then see how many turns of the knob it takes to advance to the first frame. Note that number. Now advance to the second frame and note how many turns of the knob that takes. Note that number. You can use that number of turns for the whole roll. (8 shots for 6X9, 6 shots for 6X12) The frame spaceing will increase slightly for each shot as the take up spool increases in diameter with rolled up film, but it should still work. You would have to keep track of the number of frames. I'd use a small notebook and write it down, along with exposure info and any other thing you may wish to note. Remember, a dull pencil beats a sharp mind.

Thanks ciniframe
I had though about turn counting but knew that I would wind more film with each turn the farther I got into the roll and hadn't gotten around to figuring out if there was a way to do it. I will give this a try and see what I come up with. The film has been ruined already so there is nothing to loose by running it back through with the back off.

ciniframe said:

If you really cannot resolve the problem of seeing the frame numbers then I would do this. Using one of the rolls already ruined load the camera but keep the back off, make a mark on the backing paper and then see how many turns of the knob it takes to advance to the first frame. Note that number. Now advance to the second frame and note how many turns of the knob that takes. Note that number. You can use that number of turns for the whole roll. (8 shots for 6X9, 6 shots for 6X12) The frame spaceing will increase slightly for each shot as the take up spool increases in diameter with rolled up film, but it should still work. You would have to keep track of the number of frames. I'd use a small notebook and write it down, along with exposure info and any other thing you may wish to note. Remember, a dull pencil beats a sharp mind.

Click to expand...

the ONDU site has addressed the issue...might be worth a look ....regards,Bill

Thanks Bill. I just went back there and can't find anything other than how to buy a camera so sent them an email and will see what comes of that. In the meantime I will try to figure out knob turns for the various formats.

NM Bill said:

the ONDU site has addressed the issue...might be worth a look ....regards,Bill

Click to expand...

KC2PED said:

Thanks Bill. I just went back there and can't find anything other than how to buy a camera so sent them an email and will see what comes of that. In the meantime I will try to figure out knob turns for the various formats.

Click to expand...

Check out the thread at Dead Link Removed

Thanks Prof_Pixel. I read that and it appears that my film choice is to blame. I picked up a few rolls of Ilford Pan F Plus when I bought the camera. Since then I have also bought test rolls if Foma, Fuji and Kodak but haven't loaded any of them yet.
I did run a wasted roll of film through the camera and developed a turn count for 6x6, 6x9 and 6x12 and exposed a roll using it for 6x12 over the weekend. The film is due back tonight and once I see how effective my numbers are I will report my results.

Prof_Pixel said:

Check out the thread at Dead Link Removed

Click to expand...

KC2PED said:

Thanks Prof_Pixel. I read that and it appears that my film choice is to blame. I picked up a few rolls of Ilford Pan F Plus when I bought the camera. Since then I have also bought test rolls if Foma, Fuji and Kodak but haven't loaded any of them yet.
I did run a wasted roll of film through the camera and developed a turn count for 6x6, 6x9 and 6x12 and exposed a roll using it for 6x12 over the weekend. The film is due back tonight and once I see how effective my numbers are I will report my results.

Click to expand...

You would be helping everybody if you shared your experience with Kodak Alaris.
profilm@kodakalaris.com

Attached, for what it is worth, is my crank turn count for my Ondu 120 MF
The 6x6 numbers don't look right but I added all turns across and come out with the same number of total turns as I do for 6x9 and 6x19
Methodology
I loaded a roll of film and advanced it until the big arrow pointed to the right hand magnets
I attached the magnets at the top of the back to the magnets at the bottom of the body so I would be able to see the film numbers move past the red windows
I placed a mark on top of the take-up spool winding knob
I advanced the film until the first frame number I was supposed to see in the red window for 6x6 appeared over that red window keeping track of the number of turns of the crank
I advanced to each subsequent frame documenting the number of turns from one frame to the next
I rewound the film and repeated for 6x9 and then again for 6x12
The film is back and I find that the first frame begins 1/3 of the way between the 3 and 4 upper edge markings (Ilford Pan F Plus) or that there is more than 1 6x12 frame of unexposed film at the beginning of the roll
I only got 5 frames on the roll (6 is you count the last frame being double exposed) and the trailing edge of the last frame is only 1" from the trailing edge of the film strip or just past the 19 upper edge marking
Frames are fairly evenly spaced with probably about 1/8" between them
There is fog in the lower corners of all images except the first and last
There varying numbers of consistently placed D-Max outward pointing triangles above and below each frame which do not appear to extend into the image and are probably where the black insert in the camera body is cut for placement of the wood pieces for setting the camera to 6x6 of 6x9 format
I think that I started by winding the film 10.5 turns to get to frame 1 instead of the calculated 10.15 which resulted on the large amount of blank film at the start of the roll but in any case I think my next try try will be starting out with 8 turns to frame 1 and a uniform 2.5 turns to all subsequent frames and be content with only 5 frames per roll, if I don't have better luck seeing the backing numbers of Arista, Foma, Fuji, or Kodak

I just bought the ONDU multi-format 6x12-6x9-6x6 pinhole and so far exposed and processed one film, Fuji Acros 100.

I've found there is a particularity to using the 6x12 format, because of the spacing, the use of the 6x6 window and the spacer bars for the 6x6 format.
When the first frame number, 1, is in the red window, it would be fine for 6x6 because there would be leader film to the left of it, towards the take-up spool. The 6x12, however, with frame 1 in the window, is not sufficiently advanced. As a result, the first frame was cut off and the image size is about 10.9cm, with no clear film leader. When I cut the film from the backing paper, it was at about 1cm from the edge of the tape. Had it been cut right to the tape, that still would have been a problem, as there still wouldn't have been any clear film leader. Pulling the tape off isn't an option, either.

At the other end of the film, after the last frame, there was a good 7cm of blank film, so there is plenty of lee-way to compensate by winding past the number seen in the window - if, that is, the number CAN be seen in the window. As the OP said, it can be difficult if not impossible to see the number on the backing paper, but I find the frame numbers on the Fuji Acros are clearer than on other papers such as Ilford.

About 2.5cm past the frame number, the first of three small circles will appear. They are the lead-up tp the next frame number. By my calculations, advancing past frame 1 to the second of the small circles will then place the film correctly in order to have enough film and leader for the first exposure.

My plan is to then advance the film until frame 3 is in the window, and then again to the second of the small circles past frame 3, if I plan to continue taking photos in that particular session. If I'm not going to take any more photos, I'll leave the frame at 3, with a reminder to myself to advance the film again before using the next time.

Alternatively, the film could be advanced to the second circle past the frame number, since if there is a doubt as to how many frames are exposed, the film can be wound back slightly to see what frame it is, then advanced again. Being careful and taking good notes for each frame and film is also helpful, but there is no guarantee that always happens - speaking strictly for myself here!

Also, since these cameras are hand crafted, the spacer bars are not interchangeable from left to right, so I've marked which side each belongs on, and facing which way.

So far, so good, I'm pleased with the results of the first film and the quality of the camera and pinhole. Here are a few from this roll, starting with the first frame which was short changed.

mcfitz said:

When the first frame number, 1, is in the red window, it would be fine for 6x6 because there would be leader film to the left of it, towards the take-up spool. The 6x12, however, with frame 1 in the window, is not sufficiently advanced. As a result, the first frame was cut off and the image size is about 10.9cm, with no clear film leader.

Click to expand...

mcfitz said:

At the other end of the film, after the last frame, there was a good 7cm of blank film, so there is plenty of lee-way to compensate by winding past the number seen in the window

Click to expand...

Reading the manual on the internet, it seems to me that for the first frame, you are expected to advance the film until "2" shows in the window. From then on, you advance and stop at numbers "4", "6", "8", "10" and "12".

MattKing said:

Reading the manual on the internet, it seems to me that for the first frame, you are expected to advance the film until "2" shows in the window. From then on, you advance and stop at numbers "4", "6", "8", "10" and "12".

Click to expand...

Yes indeed it does, and it also does on the manual print out sent with the camera, which I did not see at all - what's that old saying about reading the fine print? The font used is quite small, I attribute it to that ... thank you for pointing this out.