On the Table: European BPX: Pros, Cons and sound off

Ian Grant said:

Personally I'm not interested in non analog print exchanges it goes against the whole ethos of APUG, I hadn't realised they existed here.

Ian

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The Postcard exchange has always included that flexibility. Stone participated in the previous BPX with a print from a colour transparency printed on colour photographic paper from a scan.

StoneNYC said:

Also as a side note, this is the ONLY exchange that I personally can participate in, because all the others seem to require wet printing which I don't (yet) do.

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Might I suggest looking at the(there was a url link here which no longer exists) - The rules are a little more relaxed and you can send LightJet prints without risk of being ostracised.... Just don't do what some guy did a while back and send out a bunch of store bought postcards.

StoneNYC said:

Well the BPX just allows some leniency for people like me who can't print Cibichrome prints because it doesn't exist, so they allow you to scan the transparency and send it to a printer to be light-jet printed, it's still a chemical print, but has hybrid workflow.

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Thank you for clearing that up, your post seemed to indicate any non analog print was acceptable.

StoneNYC said:

If that's not acceptable to you, I guess no European BPX needs to exist and the problem is solved

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Whether I might chose to participate has nothing to do with the possible existence of a European BPX that's up to the Organiser and sufficient interest.

Ian

The BPX, again, will still be an international exchange. I am reading that there is NO resistance to regional exchanges (ie. AU/NZ). I think, again, a European exchange is an awesome idea. My hope, again, is that this main exchange will still draw an international flavor. So, the only question that remains in my mind...

Where is this new European exchange? Someone take that bull by the horns and make this happen.

Ian Grant said:

Thank you for clearing that up, your post seemed to indicate any non analog print was acceptable.



Whether I might chose to participate has nothing to do with the possible existence of a European BPX that's up to the Organiser and sufficient interest.

Ian

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Ian,

You know that I respect you, I've mentioned this before, so please don't take this the wrong way as I believe it is an American idiom, but you are the one who seems to be the squeaky wheel here, I do see if you other people from Europe saying they'd like an exchange, but you seem to be the one who is the most stern about the prospect, and are the one carrying the weight of the idea that most Europeans would prefer their own.

I could be wrong, but I don't see a bunch of Americans claiming that they only want to have an American exchange, and wouldn't you think from your perspective, if you heard us say well we only want an American exchange no outsiders allowed that could somehow be perceived as elitist or inclusive, and sort of hurt peoples feelings? The idea behind this forum is that is international, all inclusive of film, so why should we segregate all of these different exchanges, when we can do the same thing with everyone, are the images that exist in Europe so much better that you wouldn't want something that came from America? Ultimately what is the real difference between an American photographer shooting film any European photographer shooting film?

I guess the ultimate question is why? Why do you need there to be something separate, what is the real reason that you want only Europeans to send and receive photos, what is the need to have separate exchanges?

paul_c5x4 said:

Might I suggest looking at the(there was a url link here which no longer exists) - The rules are a little more relaxed and you can send LightJet prints without risk of being ostracised.... Just don't do what some guy did a while back and send out a bunch of store bought postcards.

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I don't happen to have that many images that are shot on transparencies that I would want to send as postcards, as it is my favorite transparencies are mostly Panoramic's which would not fit on standard postcards. Most of my imagery is black and white, and unfortunately as far as I would understand it, it's LESS ok to send black-and-white images that could in theory be printed on standard printer paper with an enlarger. My reason for using the light-jet for me, is that I don't print optically, I don't have the ability yet, someday yes, but not yet, so I'm basically using the loophole of sending transparencies, in order to be part of the exchange, if I were sending black-and-white prints, I would be required to send standard optical prints something that I don't have the ability to produce, and I feel like I would be cheating people by sending them a black-and-white prints that was made with a hybrid process.

If I'm wrong about this, and it would be okay to send light-jet printed images that are black-and-white, then sure maybe I'll be part of that. But it also seems a lot easier to send a single print that is large, then to send a bunch of little prints, and so I chose the BPX.

Stone, an honest question. Why not. Might encourage others to participate who heretofore had not.

Ian, if I may address Stone's comment about being a squeaky wheel. I am not sure how familiar you are with U.S. colloquialisms, but there are two similar yet opposite ones:

The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Typically positive; an encouragement.
The empty can rattles the most. Typically negative; an admonition.

I just don't want to see this degrade into a flame war - so lets assume Stone meant it as he stated it, unless he corrects us.

StoneNYC said:

Ian,

You know that I respect you, I've mentioned this before, so please don't take this the wrong way as I believe it is an American idiom, but you are the one who seems to be the squeaky wheel here, I do see if you other people from Europe saying they'd like an exchange, but you seem to be the one who is the most stern about the prospect, and are the one carrying the weight of the idea that most Europeans would prefer their own.

I could be wrong, but I don't see a bunch of Americans claiming that they only want to have an American exchange, and wouldn't you think from your perspective, if you heard us say well we only want an American exchange no outsiders allowed that could somehow be perceived as elitist or inclusive, and sort of hurt peoples feelings? The idea behind this forum is that is international, all inclusive of film, so why should we segregate all of these different exchanges, when we can do the same thing with everyone, are the images that exist in Europe so much better that you wouldn't want something that came from America? Ultimately what is the real difference between an American photographer shooting film any European photographer shooting film?

I guess the ultimate question is why? Why do you need there to be something separate, what is the real reason that you want only Europeans to send and receive photos, what is the need to have separate exchanges?

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I don't need there to be a separate European BPX, but if there is one I'd consider supporting it. Anyone who has the slightest knowledge of photographic history in terms of image making should realise there are quite different histories and traditions of photography in different parts of the world. Beaumont Newhall's History of Photography is very biased towards US tradition and Peter Turner wrote a more UK/European biased "History of Photography" to reflect our traditions this side of the Atlantic. I have a great many US and European books of photographs and have visited many hundreds of exhibitions around the world and I can assure you that there are quite differing approaches although some cross-over between US and European photography at all levels.

At no stage have I said that Europeans would prefer to split away from the main BPX's completely, the idea is for their own (additional) European BPX, what I have said is it's wrong to object to & criticise that idea. A UK forum was set up (by APUG subscribers) so that photographers could have their own exchanges and galleries, that lost APUG a lot (most) of active members from the UK and a few from other parts of Europe. I'm saying is a European BPX helps raise the profile healthy group of subscribers here boosting the European presence which ultimately leads to a greater cultural diversity of APUG as a whole.

There are APUG groups in the US who meet to share prints, here in the UK we lost too many APUG members to host APUG only events - now we meet cross forums (open to members of the main ones). A European BPX would help bring people together a and foster new friendships etc.

Ian

On a side note, I ashamedly was not aware of Turner's history, Ian. I have Beaumont's and you're right. I will have to acquire the other. Thanks a bunch.

Ian Grant said:

At no stage have I said that Europeans would prefer to split away from the main BPX's completely...

A European BPX would help bring people together a and foster new friendships etc.

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No, that's not what you said. What you said was...

Ian Grant said:

Europe has a deep rich, extremely varied photographic culture. APUG isn't a US based website it's led by an ex-pat US guy settled in New Zealand. If we in Europe want our way of doing things then just back off and realise we don't always want to be US led, or rather misled.

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Emphasis is mine, but the words are yours. Just keeping the facts straight.

Kind of a funny way to "help bring people together" and "foster new friendships", don't you think?

Ken

Ken Nadvornick said:

No, that's not what you said. What you said was...
Emphasis is mine, but the words are yours. Just keeping the facts straight.

Kind of a funny way to "help bring people together" and "foster new friendships", don't you think?

Ken

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Emphasis is yours, and I have no issues saying that we don't always want to always be US led, neither would you want to have an APUG dominated by Europeans or others.

A European BPX would bring people together (in Europe) that would be positive for APUG as a whole. Diversity is good for APUG long term, that's why I think people from outside Europe should back off and let Europeans decide for themselves if they want their own BPX.

Ian

Ian Grant said:

Emphasis is yours, and I have no issues saying that we don't always want to always be US led, neither would you want to have an APUG dominated by Europeans or others.

A European BPX would bring people together (in Europe) that would be positive for APUG as a whole. Diversity is good for APUG long term, that's why I think people from outside Europe should back off and let Europeans decide for themselves if they want their own BPX.

Ian

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I do agree that a European only BPX would in fact bring members together in the UK.

However, I disagree with the fact that it would become an additional, I think that if you end up making a specialized European version, that many of the European members of the current BPX would and up deciding to choose between the two, rather than participate in both, and I think that's where the issue lies, that it would end up splitting up the current membership and participation. That's all I was saying, I suppose you could give it a try and see what happens. Want to run it's Ian?

I think I'll start a New England only BPX hehe

Ian Grant said:

Emphasis is yours, and I have no issues saying that we don't always want to always be US led, neither would you want to have an APUG dominated by Europeans or others.

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Ian...

Look at my name. What do you see? Where do you think my family might have originated from in the first place? (Hint: My grandmother spoke fluent Russian, Bohemian, German, and broken English. My father spoke beautifully fluent German, in addition to American English.)

Today there were four of us in the office at work. A young lady from Russia, a very nice gentleman from Bangladesh, a fellow software engineer from China, and myself from (well, you're supposed to be figuring that out on your own). All four are either native born or naturalized American citizens.

By your writings, you don't seem to evidence much of an understanding of Americans at all. With the exception of Native Americans (who got screwed in the deal, and for which I'm truly sorry), we're ALL from someplace else. Asking someone where they are from is a staple topic here in any conversation after meeting someone new.

So tell me again, why on earth would I have a problem with a European-centric anything?

I'm not like you. I wouldn't.

Ian Grant said:

A European BPX would bring people together (in Europe) that would be positive for APUG as a whole. Diversity is good for APUG long term, that's why I think people from outside Europe should back off and let Europeans decide for themselves if they want their own BPX.

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Nobody is disagreeing. We keep telling you to do just that. Have you started it yet?



Ken

Alright, guys. This is enough. This is NOWHERE near the spirit in which this thread was intended. It has to stop now. This is pointless. So, let's drop it.

Agree with Chris.. Honestly I am rather sad about the discussions here. I thought of an ebpx as of a possibikity to get more enjoyment from doing what we (supposedly) all love doing, which is photography, but this is really way off.
Long live the (international) BPX.

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