On the Table: European BPX: Pros, Cons and sound off

Ken Nadvornick · Dec 9, 2013

I think instead you may be misreading.

It's not hostility by US members to the idea of a European BPX. It's just that some of us APUG members* really do enjoy interacting with members from other countries, and would like to continue with that current BPX format.

If you honestly feel that your interests would be better served by withdrawing from the APUG international BPX exchange and forming a brand new one that caters only to those with interests more similar to your own, I would encourage you to do so.

No one is trying to mislead you anywhere.

Ken

* 'andreios' is from Prague, Bert 'The Toad Men', who so enjoyed my print, is from The Netherlands, most of my own submissions have gone to members outside of the USA...

TheToadMen · Dec 9, 2013

Hi Ken,
You're right about that.
But in Europe no country is as you say "who look, act, and think exactly like you do".
Heck, the majority in the UK still think they're outside Europe (and sometimes I wonder if they are right about that too ...) and Turkey is still not sure if they want to be part of Europe or the Middle East Region.
I think that is one of the differences between Europe and the USA. Everything is a lot smaller over here in Europe, still everyone is much further away: cultural, language, style, arts, literature, music, looks, food, ... We Europeans don't travel as much as you CONUS people do (our mistake, I know).

So, in fact a European BPX would be a great opportunity for us "Europeans" to get to know each other better. No melting of cultures over here in Europe. I think that's a prerogative of the US society, something we apparently don't (want to) know?? Again: our mistake (up to some extend).
The US is like "one nation", Europe is but a bunch of countries that happen to be in the same continent. We don't even know where Europe ends. (Did you know that even Russia is a partial in Europe?)

So the "risk" you mention would be more on your side of the ocean, I'm guessing.
But yes, I'm in favor of a worldwide BPX also - right next to a EBPX. I don't want a EBPX if it would drain the worldwide BPX, but somehow I don't think that will happen. There are many more participants in the US than in Europe. And a EBPX might encourage European APUG members to start exchanging too - even join the worldwide BPX in due time?

And I'll join both.
Bert from Holland

(Edit: I hope I didn't offend anyone. If I did I apologize upfront: it was unintended)

Ken Nadvornick said:
Personally I'd hate to see the BPX tribalized by splitting it up regionally. So often regional differences between cultures just melt away when people are in one-to-one contact with each other at any level.
(...)
It's not always such a good idea to surround yourself with only those who look, act, and think exactly like you do.
That's the real value I see in an international BPX. And well worth the penalty of a little extra bubble wrap and additional postage.
Ken

Ken Nadvornick · Dec 9, 2013

Well then, perhaps I am the one who is misreading.

If those in Europe (and the UK, if they don't want to be thought of as part of Europe either) hold such antagonist feelings toward Americans that they are telling us to "back off" because we enjoy interacting with them via the BPX, and that they want their own print exchange without us in it because we're somehow misleading them in some way, then maybe this whole print exchange idea is not really the friendly international exercise that I thought it was...

I think maybe it might be time for me to take a break from it all.

Ken

MattKing · Dec 9, 2013

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the entire impetus for having separate exchanges rooted in higher shipping costs?

StoneNYC · Dec 9, 2013

MattKing said:
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the entire impetus for having separate exchanges rooted in higher shipping costs?

Yes that was my understanding as well.

Which is why I mentioned that this past one, we had the option to specify if we could not afford the overseas shipping costs, but if we COULD afford them, then we might get an international exchange.

This is a worldwide exchange, isn't that the point?

Why should we separate?

Ken Nadvornick · Dec 9, 2013

MattKing said:
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the entire impetus for having separate exchanges rooted in higher shipping costs?

Not according to post #25, no...

Ken

Ian Grant · Dec 10, 2013

It's worth remembering that there are many regional events and also print exchanges. I've taken part in organised APUG events in the UK, there are similar events in parts of Europe, Australia etc. There's been posts regarding Australian print exchanges.

The point of the original post that Chris made in this thread was about cultural diversity, most of us in Europe wouldn't see that as an issue, and we do tend to ravel inside Europe itself so a purely European Print Exchange would nbe healthy in bringing together a like minded group of photographers with a diverse mix of cultural backgrounds.

Ian

StoneNYC · Dec 10, 2013

Ian Grant said:
It's worth remembering that there are many regional events and also print exchanges. I've taken part in organised APUG events in the UK, there are similar events in parts of Europe, Australia etc. There's been posts regarding Australian print exchanges.

The point of the original post that Chris made in this thread was about cultural diversity, most of us in Europe wouldn't see that as an issue, and we do tend to ravel inside Europe itself so a purely European Print Exchange would nbe healthy in bringing together a like minded group of photographers with a diverse mix of cultural backgrounds.

Ian

I think the main issue with that is that there are only so many print exchanges one can be a part of, and if there's a euro specific print exchange, then the current BPX would probably suffer from a drop in European participation. Therefore lessening the full experience of cultural diversity we get currently.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Dec 10, 2013

I am really interested in non english speaking european countries. My only foreign language knowledge is english and I am done with reading english websites. As a German camera and lens , french painting and sculpture , hungarian architecture , austrian arts etc. lover , I always felt I am short to these cultures. I will have better time spent in investing european people , not american 5 dollars thrift store nikon users , laughers and american head shooters and nude slut pictures.

Christopher Walrath · Dec 10, 2013

Look, I don't want to generalize. I am not by any stretch hostile about a seperate exchange. On the contrary I encourage it. The main BPX will still be international. A European exchange will only serve to encourage more particpation from our membership. My original con was from the POV that I love European, and other, imagery and heritage and hope that some of it continues still in this main exchange. There, I think I can safely say, is no animosity on either side of the pond whatsoever.

Ken Nadvornick · Dec 10, 2013

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:
I will have better time spent in investing european people , not american 5 dollars thrift store nikon users , laughers and american head shooters and nude slut pictures.

Wow...

Ken

TheToadMen · Dec 10, 2013

Mustafa,
I don't know if you really meant this or if you expressed yourself poorly because of English not being your native language, but I see no reason to call anyone "5 dollars thrift store nikon users , laughers and american head shooters and nude slut pictures".
If your interest lies more with other European countries instead of elsewhere on the planet, good for you. I can understand that. But please stay friendly to/about other users. Threat them as you wanted to be treated yourself, or even better than that.
Thank you.
Bert from Holland

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:
I am really interested in non english speaking european countries. My only foreign language knowledge is english and I am done with reading english websites. As a German camera and lens , french painting and sculpture , hungarian architecture , austrian arts etc. lover , I always felt I am short to these cultures. I will have better time spent in investing european people , not american 5 dollars thrift store nikon users , laughers and american head shooters and nude slut pictures.

TheToadMen · Dec 10, 2013

Hello Ken,
If I made this impression I apologize sincerely!!
That wasn't the meaning of my post at all. I merely wanted to say there are more differences between the US and Europe than meets the eye. In fact, that's what makes this forum (and the BPX) so interesting to me.
I DON'T have antagonist feelings toward Americans and don't want you to "back off" what so ever! Sorry if I made that impression.
I just wanted to say that there is a difference between Europe (not bening one country in nature) and the US as a fact, not an opinion.
And I don't want an exchange without CONUS members, in contrary. I'm only comtemplating about an extra EBPX to attract more APUG users from Europe to all the exchanges. Especially because there aren't that much European participants right now.
But I didn't mean for anyone to back off and I don't want an exchange without you US folks at all. I just want an extra exchange besides the one we already have and enjoy so much. And yes, I have some reservations to a EBPX because I don't want it to pull people away from the worldwide BPX.

So, please Ken, don't give up on the BPX on behalf of my ranting. I'm still enjoying your print from BPX-18.
I apologize for the inconvenience I caused you.
Bert from Holland

Ken Nadvornick said:
Well then, perhaps I am the one who is misreading.

If those in Europe (and the UK, if they don't want to be thought of as part of Europe either) hold such antagonist feelings toward Americans that they are telling us to "back off" because we enjoy interacting with them via the BPX, and that they want their own print exchange without us in it because we're somehow misleading them in some way, then maybe this whole print exchange idea is not really the friendly international exercise that I thought it was...

I think maybe it might be time for me to take a break from it all.

Ken

Steve Smith · Dec 10, 2013

I have just one question: What does BPX stand for?

I assume P is for print and X is for exchange (although it should be E).

So that just leaves the B as a mystery to me!

Steve.

Christopher Walrath · Dec 10, 2013

B equals Blind. Meaning you do not know from whom you will receive a print. And the X is just cooler.

cowanw · Dec 10, 2013

ahhh.
thank you Steve.

Ken Nadvornick · Dec 10, 2013

TheToadMen said:
If I made this impression I apologize sincerely!!

No, no. Not you, Bert. The others. Certainly no need for you to apologize.

When I said earlier that people of different cultures are often surprisingly similar in many ways, that included bad ways as well as good ways. All societies and cultures have examples of people who are unreasonable, prejudiced, self-righteous, mean, or are just really, really unhappy individuals. Can't be avoided. It's natural variability in action. I think we may be seeing examples of that last instance here.

Another lesson I've learned when dealing with people is that sometimes, no matter how hard to one tries to accommodate these individuals, nothing one does is going to make a difference. They're not happy. They're not going to be happy. They're not going to allow you to try to make them happy. And that's just the way it is.

Sometimes it's nothing you've said or done, it's merely your presence alone that is antagonizing to them. In these cases the thing to do is to simply smile, wish them the best, then quietly step around them and keep moving forward along with everyone else. You can rest assured that before you, it was someone else that was infuriating them. And after you it will be someone new making them angry yet again.

All you can do is try your best, then quietly walk away to keep from making things worse.

Ken

StoneNYC · Dec 11, 2013

I have a simple suggestion, it may or may not even work, but what if we simply change the name so that it's more clear that this is a universal exchange?

Perhaps calling it the "worldwide print exchange"

And making it very clear in the beginning, that those who wish to only receive and or send prints within their country for shipping or other reasons, should indicate so and their sign up.

Then the Europeans that want to only be in Europe and ship in Europe can do so, and the Americans can do the same, and those that want to exchange worldwide and can afford it and have no issue with it can do so?

As far as Mustafa, PLEASE I ask you, just stop calling the nude images "sluts" and other derogatory words? It is unkind and inappropriate. It may be acceptable where you are to use such words, but it is not here on an international forum, it is rude, and unwelcoming, and I've tried and tried to respect you, but it's going too far. Please refrain from using such language. Thank you.

TheToadMen · Dec 11, 2013

If we'd change the name, make it a "worldwide BPX". The "blind" part of the exchange is what makes it so interesting.

I wouldn't allow too much shipping restrictions in the WBPX, because it's worldwide and it could become unmanageable (is that even a proper english word?). The extra shipping costs are relatively low when you take all the other costs into account.

One or two "local senders" is doable but I wouldn't advertise it. You know what you sign up for in the WBPX and there are already some additional more local exchanges.

Heck, I'll even ship to Belgium.

StoneNYC · Dec 11, 2013

TheToadMen said:
If we'd change the name, make it a "worldwide BPX". The "blind" part of the exchange is what makes it so interesting.

I wouldn't allow too much shipping restrictions in the WBPX, because it's worldwide and it could become unmanageable (is that even a proper english word?). The extra shipping costs are relatively low when you take all the other costs into account.

One or two "local senders" is doable but I wouldn't advertise it. You know what you sign up for in the WBPX and there are already some additional more local exchanges.

Heck, I'll even ship to Belgium.

Well the major issue here from what I'm gathering from the European side, is that the many Europeans want to exchange with each other only, rather than exchanging with other continents, so that's why I suggested offering it as a specific option, that way it will attract people that only want to exchange within Europe and be inclusive of that sect, while still maintaining one singular pool of participants?

I think the blind part kind of also is confusing for some, and because of that might turn away some.

I know it sounds goofy, but ... "Worldwide Surprise Print Exchange" or better yet! "Worldwide Mystery Print Exchange" that sounds more interesting.. OH a MYSTERY! I wonder what that's about, I'll go check out that print exchange because it caught my eye...

I know it's sounds so simple, but sometimes the title really can catch your eye and make you check something out you normally would skip over.

I know when I first joined I skipped over the blind print exchange because I didn't really understand it, and it didn't sound very interesting... It was only later when someone pointed out to me that I actually read through the description and then got interested.

By the way you did use the right word, unmanageable that's correct.

Ian Grant · Dec 11, 2013

StoneNYC said:
Well the major issue here from what I'm gathering from the European side, is that the many Europeans want to exchange with each other only, rather than exchanging with other continents, so that's why I suggested offering it as a specific option, that way it will attract people that only want to exchange within Europe and be inclusive of that sect, while still maintaining one singular pool of participants?

I still can't understand why there can't be a simple European e print exchange without objections etc from a few, there were none made when Australian APUG members did their own.

It's not a case of not wishing to exchange with other continents at all, rather a need for additional localised exchanges (as in the Australian case). There's been regional and local APUG events for many years and many of us take part and some of us organise them. As I said before there's a risk of alienating APUG members if localised/regional events/exchanges etc are criticised all the time, few realise that APUG lost a large number of active UK members about 5 years ago. We don't want something similar happening again.

Ian

TheToadMen · Dec 11, 2013

Hi Stone,
As I tried to explain before, that's NOT the issue. It seems I didn't make my case very well. We Europeans do like to exchange with everyone anywhere in the world. Is was maybe more a feeling that Europeans often couldn't join since some events are limited to CONUS only (sometimes) so they were discouraged to participate. But that doesn't mean they don't want to. Look at the sign up for BPX-19. Many European members are already on the list.

The issue I'm making - and only that - is that it could be nice to have an additional European BPX as well, like there is an "Australia & New Zealand Print Exchange". The BPX up till now has only two rounds a year so I can manage to participate in an other exchange as well. And I was wondering if any of my close neighbors could too. It could even lead up to a some regional meetings within Europe in due time and more Europeans in the BPX-20 or BPX-21 and ...

We want to exchange continental and intercontinental. Just that simple.

Bert from Holland

StoneNYC said:
Well the major issue here from what I'm gathering from the European side, is that the many Europeans want to exchange with each other only, rather than exchanging with other continents, ...

StoneNYC · Dec 11, 2013

Ian Grant said:
I still can't understand why there can't be a simple European e print exchange without objections etc from a few, there were none made when Australian APUG members did their own.

It's not a case of not wishing to exchange with other continents at all, rather a need for additional localised exchanges (as in the Australian case). There's been regional and local APUG events for many years and many of us take part and some of us organise them. As I said before there's a risk of alienating APUG members if localised/regional events/exchanges etc are criticised all the time, few realise that APUG lost a large number of active UK members about 5 years ago. We don't want something similar happening again.

Ian

Ian, I wouldn't care if the European members wanted to have their own, I think that's fine in itself, I just feel that if there is a European only exchange, that Worldwide exchange would suffer a huge loss in participants who could only do one exchange but not both.

Also as a side note, this is the ONLY exchange that I personally can participate in, because all the others seem to require wet printing which I don't (yet) do.

So I would be sad to see even less participants because they split off to do a more local one.

Ultimately it doesn't matter what I think. If you want to do something on your own, just do it, I just think the current exchange would suffer a loss of many European participants.

Ian Grant · Dec 11, 2013

StoneNYC said:
Also as a side note, this is the ONLY exchange that I personally can participate in, because all the others seem to require wet printing which I don't (yet) do.

Personally I'm not interested in non analog print exchanges it goes against the whole ethos of APUG, I hadn't realised they existed here.

Ian

StoneNYC · Dec 11, 2013

Ian Grant said:
Personally I'm not interested in non analog print exchanges it goes against the whole ethos of APUG, I hadn't realised they existed here.

Ian

Well the BPX just allows some leniency for people like me who can't print Cibichrome prints because it doesn't exist, so they allow you to scan the transparency and send it to a printer to be light-jet printed, it's still a chemical print, but has hybrid workflow.

If that's not acceptable to you, I guess no European BPX needs to exist and the problem is solved

On the Table: European BPX: Pros, Cons and sound off

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