On the Table: European BPX: Pros, Cons and sound off

Christopher Walrath · Dec 6, 2013

A seperate exchange has been proposed which I do not oppose at all. Regardless, the only participants in THIS exchange are those who sign up for THIS exchange. I certainly see a plus to save on costly shipping to foreign countries added to the expense of printing and mounting, et al. My only con is going to strictly regional exchange is that the cultural part of the exchange may suffer from a more local participation. Talk amongst yourselves.

Christopher Walrath · Dec 6, 2013

I always like to present a solution to a problem. We could allow folks to mention they want to keep shipping costs down and I can take this into account when hitting the list.

andreios · Dec 7, 2013

I live in Europe, it is per se not a bad idea, but I agree with you Chris that a local exchange might be the poorer because of it..

From my experience the difference between shipping costs within Europe and overseas is not big - especially if one is not sending a framed 20x24 print
But I can imagine the cost problem could be real on the other side of the Atlantic as well... Let's hear from you guys as well.

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Laurent · Dec 7, 2013

andreios said:
I live in Europe, it is per se not a bad idea, but I agree with you Chris that a local exchange might be the poorer because of it..

From my experience the difference between shipping costs within Europe and overseas is not big - especially if one is not sending a framed 20x24 print
But I can imagine the cost problem could be real on the other side of the Atlantic as well... Let's hear from you guys as well.

Sent from my i9300 using Tapatalk

I have the same feeling, for a reasonable size, shipping does not cost so mo much as to be a significant factor, as compared to the cost of shooting, printing, (re) printing again (and again)...

And I really like the idea of international exchanges.

I've kept myself away from exchanges, but it's because I'm not active enough at the moment (OTOH, THIS would make me active... I need to reassign my priorities!!)

Ken Nadvornick · Dec 7, 2013

Chris, I'm perfectly happy shipping my submissions overseas. I don't mind the trouble of extra secure packaging and the not-all-that-much-more added expense. I think shipping (and receiving) world-wide is one of the defining characteristics of the print exchange format. Remove that aspect, and it becomes a much less meaningful, and much less interesting, exercise.

Ken

paul_c5x4 · Dec 7, 2013

The cost of sending a 250g package to Europe is £3.50, going further afield, the price rises to £4.50 (Oz & NZ, add another 20p) - When the groups are of three to four participants, that extra pound is not a huge amount.

If I want to participate in a print exchange within a limited geographical area, I have other groups I can join.

Ian Grant · Dec 7, 2013

Christopher Walrath said:
My only con is going to strictly regional exchange is that the cultural part of the exchange may suffer from a more local participation.

I'm not sure why the Cultural part of the exchanges would suffer at all, there's a rich, deep and diverse range of cultures and traditions in Europe.

Ian

Christopher Walrath · Dec 7, 2013

That I would not have the random opportunity to receive a print from a far away and mysterious land for myself. Therein lies my rub. As I said, even if a seperate exchange were to spring forth, that would not keep ANYONE from signing up for this one, which I hope will continue to be the case. Don't get me wrong, I love the exchange as it is. Just passing along a voiced idea for discussion's sake.

spijker · Dec 7, 2013

Ian Grant said:
I'm not sure why the Cultural part of the exchanges would suffer at all, there's a rich, deep and diverse range of cultures and traditions in Europe.

We don't have that in North-America and many North-Americans never leave their continent. Even Canada and the USA look pretty similar. So I think that's where the Cultural part of the exchanges would suffer.

Although I'm in my first round BPX, I would prefer to keep it worldwide. One can also adjust the print size a bit if cost is a concern; send a smaller print if it has to go far. It's not about size. Personally I don't mind sending a print to the other end of the world. Hobbies cost money and I'm ok with that. But I can understand that it may be different for others so Chris' suggestion that people can discreetly indicate if they prefer to ship "locally" is fine with me.

Truzi · Dec 7, 2013

I've not participated yet, though would like to some day. First I need to start printing, then to be able to do something worthy of sending to another.

I do, however, understand the concept behind your idea. On the other hand, I would like the opportunity to exchange internationally, though. I'm about to use a dirty word, but not the way it is usually meant on APUG. How about an... hybrid approach?

When joining an exchange, the individual could specify whether they prefer NOT to ship internationally (perhaps by specifying a region they will ship to). This would be a bit more work for the organizer(s), but could keep costs down for those who need to, yet remain inclusive of everyone. I see this is basically what you mentioned in post #2.

Alternately, we could have a thread where people could "trade" recipients. However, that could make it less blind; perhaps people could only state the countries/regions when effecting a "trade."

spijker said:
We don't have that in North-America and many North-Americans never leave their continent. Even Canada and the USA look pretty similar. So I think that's where the Cultural part of the exchanges would suffer.

I respectfully disagree. Within the U.S.A. alone we can have some interesting differences - even within the same regions. I've often had to explain these differences to foreign students at my university (and I'm not referring to skin color). Unless we are talking merely architecture and landscape - but even then, we still have some wonderful differences. Then there are the "sub-cultures."

Christopher Walrath · Dec 7, 2013

I still think that regardless of what else may come about, this exchange will remain open to all and if someone would like to ship only locally then they should say so and that will taken into consideration.

Ian Grant · Dec 7, 2013

Truzi said:
I respectfully disagree. Within the U.S.A. alone we can have some interesting differences - even within the same regions. I've often had to explain these differences to foreign students at my university (and I'm not referring to skin color). Unless we are talking merely architecture and landscape - but even then, we still have some wonderful differences. Then there are the "sub-cultures."

It's deeper than that sure there's cultural differences in North America it's just the differences are far greater in Europe and then we have the history as well. Canada is interesting because it takes the best of US culture and the best or European culture but they don't try and invent a false history.

More interesting is in general there's a greater political dimension to art photography in Europe.

Ian

Truzi · Dec 8, 2013

Ian Grant said:
It's deeper than that sure there's cultural differences in North America it's just the differences are far greater in Europe and then we have the history as well. Canada is interesting because it takes the best of US culture and the best or European culture but they don't try and invent a false history.

More interesting is in general there's a greater political dimension to art photography in Europe.

Ian

I've always envied European history in a way because the U.S. doesn't have much. While most here are of European decent, we don't know what it is like to actually have that history. Even when we can trace our roots, it's not the same as actually living in a country that rich with it.

Tom1956 · Dec 8, 2013

They used to send QSL cards, and it was a great system. As far as the US history, seems like we have way plenty of that, in my eyes. In fact, I get annoyed at always seeing it used in a"cultural" tug-of-war all the time.
Ian, you hit it on the head. The bit about concocting a "false history", that is. Boy, did you nail it.

TheToadMen · Dec 8, 2013

Hi everyone,
I mentioned/suggested an European BPX asn an extra in the BPX-18 thread. Not because I think shipping outside Europe is too expensive myself, but found that others sometimes do. It seems that shipping rate in the US have rissen seriously the last few years. Or they somehow just don't feel comfortable shipping across the ocean (I see that a lot in the FS section also).
When I first became aware of the many exchanges on these forums, I wanted to participate. But I found that some exchanges (or other events) were limited to Us-members only (CONUS). There is also a regional Australian & New Zealand exchange.
My question had an other reason than shipping costs only. If the European members of this forum can't or won't join some exchanges (and I don't say this as a complaint, mind you) it might be a good thing to put up an extra regional exchange for people within Europe, since there are quite some good printers among the members in Europe.
So my question was more about giving others an opportunity as well, but not at the expense of the excising exchanges. Some exchanges on this forum seem to be dead for several years, so I'm doubting if there is enough interest for an other group?
The BPX itself was and is a worldwide event and I hope it still may be in the future. Besides that, it would be nice to participate in an other exchange, since the BPX is only one print in six months.

So, European members, do we need/want an extra exchange within Europe or are we busy enough in our daily lives that we don't have the time for an extra exchange besides the BPX? Will it raise some extra interest among non-exchanging members in Europe, or would you drop out of the worldwide BPX instead?
I'm not sure.
Bert from Holland

Christopher Walrath said:
A seperate exchange has been proposed which I do not oppose at all. Regardless, the only participants in THIS exchange are those who sign up for THIS exchange. I certainly see a plus to save on costly shipping to foreign countries added to the expense of printing and mounting, et al. My only con is going to strictly regional exchange is that the cultural part of the exchange may suffer from a more local participation. Talk amongst yourselves.

TheToadMen · Dec 8, 2013

Christopher Walrath said:
I still think that regardless of what else may come about, this exchange will remain open to all and if someone would like to ship only locally then they should say so and that will taken into consideration.

I agree, but not too many people should make that restriction, since it might exclude members from outside the US in the end?
When you join the BPX you know it's a worldwide event upfront, don't you?

Christopher Walrath · Dec 8, 2013

I was thinking of making it a 4 month show again with signup for the next in the rest month. I think we are going to do that. As to a European exchange, it would be cool if one were to be begun by someone there who could run it.

TheToadMen · Dec 8, 2013

Christopher Walrath said:
I was thinking of making it a 4 month show again with signup for the next in the rest month. I think we are going to do that. As to a European exchange, it would be cool if one were to be begun by someone there who could run it.

A small pole then: who would like to participate in a European BPX, if organized?

andreios · Dec 9, 2013

I'd be interested in participating an EBPX besides the regular one. (And perhaps if need be even in running it, if there were no senior members willing to do it).

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piu58 · Dec 9, 2013

I am interested in an EBPX too. It would be easier to send larger formats.

Ian Grant · Dec 9, 2013

I'd be interested but it depends whether I can get a new darkroom up & running quickly or borrow one - not so easy as I mainly shoot LF.

Ian

Ken Nadvornick · Dec 9, 2013

Personally I'd hate to see the BPX tribalized by splitting it up regionally. So often regional differences between cultures just melt away when people are in one-to-one contact with each other at any level.

It's a lesson I learned very early while working at Disneyland during my undergraduate college days. One learns very quickly when dealing directly with someone from halfway around the world that it's just another person not so different from you.

When you send a BPX print to someone, also write them a nice long letter. Talk about your experiences. Ask them about theirs. Respond back to them about the print they sent you. Use photography as an excuse to get to know them. Make a friend. Were it not for the BPX exercise you would never have known they existed at all.

It's not always such a good idea to surround yourself with only those who look, act, and think exactly like you do.

That's the real value I see in an international BPX. And well worth the penalty of a little extra bubble wrap and additional postage.

Ken

andreios · Dec 9, 2013

Very well said, Ken! I agree with this completely!

StoneNYC · Dec 9, 2013

I agree with Ken, in the past BPX I was part of, there was simply a mention that we should notate in the signup if we would PREFER to keep it within our country/area if we couldn't afford overseas shipping, this seemed to work just fine. Those who were ok with shipping worldwide would, and those who would prefer not to could ship CONUS or if they lived in Europe or whatever could ship there, and if there were an oddball, someone would have to pick up the slack but it could at least give the preferred "local" shipping first priority.

So, I say keep it as usual.

Ian Grant · Dec 9, 2013

Why is there such hostility from US members for a European BPX ?

Last time there was an issue like this the majority of UK APUG members just quietly left to set up their own Forum and only a few post occasionally now.

Europe has a deep rich, extremely varied photographic culture. APUG isn't a US based website it's led by an ex-pat US guy settled in New Zealand. If we in Europe want our way of doing things then just back off and realise we don't always want to be US led, or rather misled.

Ian

On the Table: European BPX: Pros, Cons and sound off

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