On Combining Rodinal and Xtol: New Article

df cardwell · Dec 17, 2005

In the spirit of Holiday mirth, and love for my fellow APUGGERS,
I've posted an article, "On Combining Rodinal and Xtol".

It might be just the thing for all those B&W snaps we need to make in coming days.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Wishing you all the best,

don

WARNING: The Technical Non-Conformity Editor (below) does not like the article one little bit. No, he does not.

MMfoto · Dec 17, 2005

I've been intrigued by this combo as well but haven't yet tried it. Thanks for the report. I'll give when I'm hiding in the darkroom this X-mas.

MMfoto · Dec 17, 2005

You know, now that I think about it.... this could be a very sweet combination for TMZ. XTOL is very good with this film, if a little boring. Rodinal is absolutely geogous with TMZ but too grainy for some uses. So a combination it is. That I will try.

Mark Layne · Dec 17, 2005

Add the required quantity of Glen Breton
Mark

df cardwell · Dec 17, 2005

Mark Layne said:
Add the required quantity of Glen Breton
Mark

YES

YES !

jstraw · Dec 30, 2006

Sean, any chance I could talk you into restoring this article? Please?

gainer · Dec 30, 2006

Will the result be much different from adding a dollop of sodium ascorbate to your Rodinal? I proposed that some time ago in an article in Photo Techniques. It works quite well when you add 1 teaspoon ascorbic acid + 1/2 teaspoon baking soda to a liter of 1+50 Rodinal working solution. Mix the ascorbic acid and baking soda in a little water and let the effervescence subside before adding it. Baking soda is pure sodium bicarbonate.

Developing times will be about the same as Rodinal 1+25.

Lee L · Dec 30, 2006

Until Don's notes are reposted, you might try http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Rodinal/rodinal.html
which contains a small addendum about combining Rodinal and Xtol.

This site also contains information on Gainer's methods for amending Rodinal.

Lee

jstraw · Dec 30, 2006

Thank you both!

jstraw · Dec 30, 2006

gainer said:
Will the result be much different from adding a dollop of sodium ascorbate to your Rodinal? I proposed that some time ago in an article in Photo Techniques. It works quite well when you add 1 teaspoon ascorbic acid + 1/2 teaspoon baking soda to a liter of 1+50 Rodinal working solution. Mix the ascorbic acid and baking soda in a little water and let the effervescence subside before adding it. Baking soda is pure sodium bicarbonate.

Developing times will be about the same as Rodinal 1+25.

If I am panning an EMA development in Rodinal or R09 how would you recommend determining a baseline time to work from and at what dilution, if I were to do the ascorbate amendment?

gainer · Dec 30, 2006

If I knew what EMA means I could help you more, maybe. You just quoted what I found. Mix 1 tsp. (4 grams) of ascorbic acid with 1/2 tsp baking soda in a couple of ounces of water and let the fizzing stop. Add it and 20 ml Rodinal concentrate to enough water to make a liter. Use the times you find on the Rodinal container or in the Great Big Development Chart. Whether R09 is the same, I do not know.

This addition provided sharper, finer grained results for me when I tested it years before R09. Not a huge difference, but enough and better than adding a bunch of sulfite.

Lee L · Dec 30, 2006

With the recommended sodium ascorbate as per Gainer, his rule of thumb is to develop at the next highest common dilution times, e.g. for 1:100 dilution + C, use times for 1:50, or for 1:50 + C use times for 1:25. For R09, use 1:40 times for 1:80 + C, etc.

Rule of thumb for extreme minimal agitation is about double the regular times if you agitate about once every five minutes. (As per suggestions from df cardwell.)

Guidelines only, YMMV, just a starting point, etc.

I've tried this a few times, making both adjustments simultaneously, and it has worked very well as a starting point.

Lee

Flotsam · Dec 30, 2006

I tried the unblinking eye recipe once. It had larger grain than Xtol and less accutance than Rodinal... so I switched back to using D-76 to achieve basically the same effect.

Here's a shot from that roll of Tri-X which, of course, offers absolutely no insight into what the neg or print looked like. It just happend to be in my gallery.
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

jstraw · Dec 30, 2006

Lee L said:
With the recommended sodium ascorbate as per Gainer, his rule of thumb is to develop at the next highest common dilution times, e.g. for 1:100 dilution + C, use times for 1:50, or for 1:50 + C use times for 1:25. For R09, use 1:40 times for 1:80 + C, etc.

Rule of thumb for extreme minimal agitation is about double the regular times if you agitate about once every five minutes. (As per suggestions from df cardwell.)

Guidelines only, YMMV, just a starting point, etc.

I've tried this a few times, making both adjustments simultaneously, and it has worked very well as a starting point.

Lee

EMA = Extreme Minimal Agitation

jstraw · Dec 30, 2006

Lee L said:
With the recommended sodium ascorbate as per Gainer, his rule of thumb is to develop at the next highest common dilution times, e.g. for 1:100 dilution + C, use times for 1:50, or for 1:50 + C use times for 1:25. For R09, use 1:40 times for 1:80 + C, etc.

Rule of thumb for extreme minimal agitation is about double the regular times if you agitate about once every five minutes. (As per suggestions from df cardwell.)

Guidelines only, YMMV, just a starting point, etc.

I've tried this a few times, making both adjustments simultaneously, and it has worked very well as a starting point.

Lee

Interesting so you're saying that with the ascorbate, you'd adjust the time for 1:100 to the time for 1:50...then for the reduction in agitation you'd adjust the time for 1:50 back to the time for 1:100...in other words...add the ascorbate and reduce the agitation without changing the time at all...as a starting point. Have I got that right?

gainer · Dec 30, 2006

I would say that should work for starters. Each of us has a personal idea of what good negs should look like. I just tested the recipe and procedure I gave in my previous post and it gave about what I expected.
My original article in PT began with some tests of variations in sulfite content. A practice of the time was to add sulfite up to maybe 100 grams/liter of 1+50 working solution. The result was not very exciting. Smooth grain with smooth images is not why we buy or mix our own Rodinal. My conclusion was that the added ascorbate provided the character of Rodinal with somewhat finer grain. Ascorbate powder does not keep as well as ascorbic acid, so I used the acid-bicarbonate. Some were disappointed because they left out the bicarbonate or added both to the large volume of working solution, thus leaving a lot of CO2 dissolved. The resulting change in pH caused no or little development. The pH of Rodinal is not as high as one might expect from the recipes you see for homebrewing. All the caustic soda or potash is used up in neutralizing the HCl of the p-aminophenol.HCl and the sodium or potassium bisulfite.

Lee L · Dec 30, 2006

jstraw said:
Interesting so you're saying that with the ascorbate, you'd adjust the time for 1:100 to the time for 1:50...

Correct.

jstraw said:
then for the reduction in agitation you'd adjust the time for 1:50 back to the time for 1:100...in other words...add the ascorbate and reduce the agitation without changing the time at all...as a starting point. Have I got that right?

Not exactly. For reduced agitation (from about 10 seconds/minute to 10 seconds/5 minutes) you'd generally double the time. IIRC, Rodinal times don't always simply double when you double the rate of dilution.

I got the recommendation to double times for 5 min agitation intervals from df cardwell in a pm. This appears to give a good starting time for the developers I've tried it with so far: Ilfosol S, Rodinal, Rodinal + sodium ascorbate + borax, PC-TEA, and Perceptol 1:3.

Lee

jstraw · Dec 30, 2006

Lee L said:
Correct.

Not exactly. For reduced agitation (from about 10 seconds/minute to 10 seconds/5 minutes) you'd generally double the time. IIRC, Rodinal times don't always simply double when you double the rate of dilution.

I got the recommendation to double times for 5 min agitation intervals from df cardwell in a pm. This appears to give a good starting time for the developers I've tried it with so far: Ilfosol S, Rodinal, Rodinal + sodium ascorbate + borax, PC-TEA, and Perceptol 1:3.

Lee

I'm thinking in terms of much less agitation, just shy of semi-stand. Say 30 seconds of initial agitation then just lifing and replacing the hangers from the tanks at 8 minute intervals with a dilution (with or without ascorbate) that gets close to "N" development at 32 minutes. So that beginning with the agitation at the 24 minute agitation (75% of "N") decelopment by inspection can begin.

So a.) I am interested in the benefits of amending Rodinal or R09 with ascorbate in order to temper the grain a bit, b.) I'm interested in the benefits of minimal agitation for enhancing local contrast and c.) using development by inspection to manage expansion and contraction.

Think I can have it all?

Lee L · Dec 30, 2006

jstraw said:
Think I can have it all?

Most likely.

I've pm'd with df cardwell about reduced agitation a bit and read his posts here. He's been doing this stuff for a long time, and his indication to me was that 5 minute invervals give him all the benefits of increased local contrast without the risks of uneven development from long stands. I'm taking him at his word. If 8 minutes works for you, I'd say go with it. I've had streaking in even skies on some 120 Agfa films in Rodinal 1:100 with agitation intervals as short as 15 minutes. I've also done some agitation at 8 minute invervals (trying for 1/3rd of some 24 minute development times) that came out evenly developed. My attitude is "try it and learn". But I also tend to heed good advice from experienced people like Don Cardwell when starting with new techniques.

I don't develop by inspection, but it can most certainly be done. Let us know how things come along for you. I'll be interested in your results.

As for Rodinal + sodium ascorbate, I've tried it with several films and been generally happy with the results, but need more extensive shooting to really judge it. I did a head-to-head with PC-TEA and Rodinal + C + borax with HP5+ a couple of years back, and found that I liked the PC-TEA a little better for both tonality and grain.

Lee

jstraw · Dec 30, 2006

I'd really like to get my hands on a densitometer so I can do a series of development tests to find an "N" time for Zone VIII exposures for the films I'll be working with (primarily HP5+ and FP4+) in appropriate dilutions. I'd adjust the dilution till I hit the density I was seeking at the time I wanted.

I have enough faith in df_cardwell to try his five minute interval. I'd work towards "N" at 30 minutes and begin DBI at the 20 minute mark.

I'm still confused about one thing regarding the ascorbate. Are the ammounts of ascorbic acid and bicarbinate the same for a given volume of working solution regardless of the Rodinal dilution?

gainer · Dec 31, 2006

I never used any dilution other than 1+50. I would say if you want more dilution, dilute that to taste.
I should point out that what you are doing is making a developer in which the p-aminophenol of the Rodinal forms a superadditive pair with the ascorbate. It is much like a variation of Xtol with p-aminophenol instead of dimezone. If you mix Rodinal with Xtol, you get both dimezone and p-aminophenol along with ascorbate or its isomer erythorbate. Dimezone or phenidone have been known to be antagonistic to metol, so that instead of a triple superadditive combination you get reduced activity. This is one thing you might learn about if you compare the mixture of Rodinal and Xtol with simply adding ascorbate to Rodinal.

Have phun!

gainer · Dec 31, 2006

I forgot to mention that p-aminophenol and metol are cousins. You could in fact make a sort of Rodinal using metol in place of p-aminophenol.

Gerald Koch · Jan 2, 2007

I am reminded of the guy who got two different colognes for Christmas. He really liked them both and decided to mix them to get the benefits of both. He wound up smelling like celery so the story goes.

gainer · Jan 3, 2007

For what it's worth: I mixed the following concoction.

40 grams p-aminophenol.
100 grams sodium sulfite.
100 grams ascorbic acid.
59.4 grams sodium hydroxide.
water to make 1 liter.
Some precipitate will remain. Save it with the stock solution. It is a sort of replenisher, at least in theory.
This, when 1 part is diluted with 25 parts of water, is about equivalent to Rodinal 1+50 with 2 grams od sodium ascorbate added per liter of working solution. It's a pretty good developer.

On Combining Rodinal and Xtol: New Article

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