Olympus Trip 35 question

David Lyga · Sep 25, 2020

I am not placing this in the RF section because ... it is not a rangefinder camera!

However, I do have a question. When this camera is set at f2.8. the aperture opens all the way.... EXCEPT if I put the camera right next to a bright light bulb. Then, the meter seems to slightly override my 'bad' choice by closing the aperture down a bit. in other words, the f2.8 is not a definitive, absolute choice that the photographer is allowed to make. The meter comes into play in order to cut down the 'incorrect' exposure. If I cover the selenium meter, the aperture opens up fully.

I never experienced a camera like this: obtaining the correct exposure, at all costs, seems to be of primary importance here, and Olympus does not want full manual, even with only aperture, to be a component of its operation. Do I err here?

This camera was intended to be a fully automatic model and, as far as I can understand, the aperture choices are solely for accommodating the guide numbers for flash, nothing else. Or ... is my camera faulty with letting the meter have the final say? - David Lyga

Donald Qualls · Sep 25, 2020

If, as I recall, that Trip works essentially the same as my Pen EES-2, the aperture settings are only for flash use, and setting manual aperture locks the shutter to something like 1/40. The automatic aperture uses what's called a "trap needle" meter system, where a pair of serrated jaws close on the needle of a meter movement that's invisible to the user. It's possible that the meter needle might be swinging so far that the needle trap is catching on it even when it's supposed to be ignored. Otherwise, there may be something slightly out of adjustment in your camera.

BTW, thanks for mentioning this; it got me to look at my Pen and discover that the aperture is sticking again. Guess I'll have to look up the instructions, open it up, and clean it again. Pretty annoying -- every ten or fifteen years, you'd think this was delicate equipment or something.

David Lyga · Sep 25, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
If, as I recall, that Trip works essentially the same as my Pen EES-2, the aperture settings are only for flash use, and setting manual aperture locks the shutter to something like 1/40. The automatic aperture uses what's called a "trap needle" meter system, where a pair of serrated jaws close on the needle of a meter movement that's invisible to the user. It's possible that the meter needle might be swinging so far that the needle trap is catching on it even when it's supposed to be ignored. Otherwise, there may be something slightly out of adjustment in your camera.

BTW, thanks for mentioning this; it got me to look at my Pen and discover that the aperture is sticking again. Guess I'll have to look up the instructions, open it up, and clean it again. Pretty annoying -- every ten or fifteen years, you'd think this was delicate equipment or something.

Donald, today I took that Trip 35 apart. The aperture leaves (only two there are!) were not opening. When I got to them, there was the tiniest bit of dried oil. I used lighter fluid to wipe away everything and put everything back together after giving the glass a thorough cleaning.

It really is a very simple camera. I would like to know what determines whether the shutter is 1/200 or 1/40. But, I really think that you might be mistaken with my camera being a bit off. Actually, if makes sense that if someone is "stupid" enough to use f2.8 when light is really abundant, I'll bet that Yoshihish Maitani let that meter override that decision. The camera was intended NOT for people who want total freedom to make adjustments for different effects, especially if the available light for flash use was too much to allow f2.8. It was made for people who wanted total freedom not to have to think about anything other than taking pictures. - David Lyga

Donald Qualls · Sep 25, 2020

That's exactly what I have with my Pen -- two aperture leaves, forming a square opening, and are at f/22 when at rest. Push the shutter release, and the leaves open until the meter needle stops them. There's a cross-over, IIRC when the auto aperture goes below f/8, where the shutter slows down instead of two stops of aperture. My Minolta 16 Mg has the same setup, except the setting is fully manual on a match-needle basis; you can actually hear the shutter pallet enable when you move the exposure dial past the cross-over. You don't get to hear it in the Trip or Pen because any time you manually set the aperture, you're locked at 1/40 for flash. You're supposed to use that only for guide number exposure with a fixed-power flash (would have been a bulb when these came out).

If Maitani had designed an exposure limiter into that meter/shutter/aperture set, it would have greatly complicated the simple device. And how much difference will it really make if the meter limits you to only f/4 at 1/40 in full sun on a snow field (probably overexposing by seven stops or so), vs. f/2.8 at 1/40 (overexposed by a full 8 stops)? It's just a surprisingly simple mechanism that normally works very well, acting up at an edge case, giving unintended behavior in an extreme condition.

crumbo · Oct 8, 2020

How the Trip sets speeds:
Among many other functions, there are two arms operated by the release slide. The rear arm has two wide steps beneath the meter needle, one for high speed and one for low. The other arm has -- lots of little steps, in two groups corresponding with the two steps of the first.

Briefly, as the release slide is pressed down, it will allow these arms to rise up, the rear one trapping the meter needle. Depending on the position of the needle, it will halt the motion of the first arm on either the higher or lower step. The next arm will then rise, stopping when it's tiny steps reach the needle. How high this second arm rises will determine the aperture.

On the underside of the upper portion if the shutter mechanism is an inertia retard. If the needle is "low", it will stop the rear arm on it's higher step, and the inertia retard will intercept the mechanism that opens and closes the shutter blades, briefly delaying their operation, delivering "slow" speed. If the needle is "high", it will stop the rear arm on it's lower step, allowing the arm to rise up further. In doing so, it will allow an arm on the back of the shutter mechanism to push the inertia retard away from the mechanism that operates the blades. As a result, the mechanism will allow the shutter to function unimpeded at it's fastest speed.

Aperture function:
On the back side of the aperture ring (the ring with the red "A" for auto and black manual aperture settings) is attached a cam that is designed to intercept the rear arm described above. When setting the aperture ring on the black settings, this cam should block this arm from rising, thereby preventing the camera from delivering it's faster shutter speed. BUT the cell and meter are not disabled -- the needle will still respond to light, and should the camera be used in adequately bright light, it may deliver an aperture one or more stops smaller than that set on the dial (down to about f5.6 or so by my eye in daylight conditions/high ASA), but will still only deliver the slower shutter speed. As noted on the dial, the black settings are "for Flash", under the assumption that the camera is being used in low light conditions.

Why was the camera made without a mechanism to disable the meter when set on fixed apertures intended for use with flash? I can only imagine cost!

David Lyga · Oct 9, 2020

crumbo said:
How the Trip sets speeds:
Among many other functions, there are two arms operated by the release slide. The rear arm has two wide steps beneath the meter needle, one for high speed and one for low. The other arm has -- lots of little steps, in two groups corresponding with the two steps of the first.

Briefly, as the release slide is pressed down, it will allow these arms to rise up, the rear one trapping the meter needle. Depending on the position of the needle, it will halt the motion of the first arm on either the higher or lower step. The next arm will then rise, stopping when it's tiny steps reach the needle. How high this second arm rises will determine the aperture.

On the underside of the upper portion if the shutter mechanism is an inertia retard. If the needle is "low", it will stop the rear arm on it's higher step, and the inertia retard will intercept the mechanism that opens and closes the shutter blades, briefly delaying their operation, delivering "slow" speed. If the needle is "high", it will stop the rear arm on it's lower step, allowing the arm to rise up further. In doing so, it will allow an arm on the back of the shutter mechanism to push the inertia retard away from the mechanism that operates the blades. As a result, the mechanism will allow the shutter to function unimpeded at it's fastest speed.

Aperture function:
On the back side of the aperture ring (the ring with the red "A" for auto and black manual aperture settings) is attached a cam that is designed to intercept the rear arm described above. When setting the aperture ring on the black settings, this cam should block this arm from rising, thereby preventing the camera from delivering it's faster shutter speed. BUT the cell and meter are not disabled -- the needle will still respond to light, and should the camera be used in adequately bright light, it may deliver an aperture one or more stops smaller than that set on the dial (down to about f5.6 or so by my eye in daylight conditions/high ASA), but will still only deliver the slower shutter speed. As noted on the dial, the black settings are "for Flash", under the assumption that the camera is being used in low light conditions.

Why was the camera made without a mechanism to disable the meter when set on fixed apertures intended for use with flash? I can only imagine cost!

Based upon my taking this camera apart (and soon selling it for $20) I must state that all you have said is not only true but masterfully written. I saw all those things and wondered how it all went together. Now I know. And one of the best points you mentioned was the fact that just because you manually set an aperture, that does NOT mean that that setting is strictly manual. Yes, if there is an abundance of light, the aperture will close down further, again to mitigate the potential of too much exposure with flash. It is an instrument meant for people who would rather not think too much. Its lens is spectacular. - David Lyga

Chan Tran · Oct 9, 2020

David Lyga said:
Based upon my taking this camera apart (and soon selling it for $20) I must state that all you have said is not only true but masterfully written. I saw all those things and wondered how it all went together. Now I know. And one of the best points you mentioned was the fact that just because you manually set an aperture, that does NOT mean that that setting is strictly manual. Yes, if there is an abundance of light, the aperture will close down further, again to mitigate the potential of too much exposure with flash. It is an instrument meant for people who would rather not think too much. Its lens is spectacular. - David Lyga

Not think too much??? Didn't it actually made you think a lot before asking the question here. It drove you crazy as to why it does what it does.

macfred · Oct 10, 2020

Interesting site for tinkerers who like to modify their Trip 35 ... http://s3.amazonaws.com/idarmethod/TopFolder/TripIndex.html
An English friend and photographer did some remarkable stuff with his (not tinkered - but CLA'd) Trip 35's. https://www.flickr.com/photos/ajweller/albums/72157661904273834

David Lyga · Oct 10, 2020

Chan Tran said:
Not think too much??? Didn't it actually made you think a lot before asking the question here. It drove you crazy as to why it does what it does.

Nothing DROVE me crazy. This craziness is an inherent trait. - David Lyga

crumbo · Oct 16, 2020

macfred said:
Interesting site for tinkerers who like to modify their Trip 35 ... http://s3.amazonaws.com/idarmethod/TopFolder/TripIndex.html

Cut this, bend that.... Having repaired countless 100's of these in my Olympus career, this is like fingernails on a chalkboard to me!

Donald Qualls · Oct 17, 2020

crumbo said:
Cut this, bend that.... Having repaired countless 100's of these in my Olympus career, this is like fingernails on a chalkboard to me!

I won't disagree with that -- I like to see devices work they way they were designed to work -- but with no replacement meter cells for these cameras, if the old selenium has gone bad converting to manual operation may be the only way to make a failed camera usable.

Kennyh · Dec 6, 2020

Hi everybody, this would be my first entry here! Seeing some wise people in this thread while searching for solutions for my meter problem I thought I ask here =)

I got my second Trip 35 along with some other worn cameras.
First I thought the meter was all dead but with further investigation I found the meter somewhat works but it requires a lot of light to fire, like setting the ISO to 400 or 200 and point it at a bright sky. Anything with less light than that makes the red flag to pop.

Looking at the meter needle under the top plate I can see it's moving when flashing a LED light on it, but only approx. 1/4 or 1/3 of the way. Never to the middle. Lowering the ISO setting makes the needle move even less. I can gently push the needle all the way to the left with a tweezer so it doesn't seem stuck. Also, the aperture blades seem snappy.

For me it seems like the meter is working but is slow and tired...
What are your thoughts? Are the selenium cells failing? Or could it still be a problem with the aperture blades?.

Donald Qualls · Dec 6, 2020

The Trip (like my Pen EE-S2 half frame) uses a "trap needle" metering system -- the aperture blades are coupled to a pair of blades that close on the meter needle. They should normally start fully closed (aperture will be a tiny square opening, visible through the lens because it's in front of the shutter) and open until the needle traps. If you don't see this happening from the front when you press the shutter release, the aperture blades need cleaning (this is a very common problem with Olympus cameras in this family).

That, however, won't prevent the meter needle from moving. With a strong light and ISO set to minimum, it should be possible to see the meter needle approach full deflection. If that's not happening, it's likely your selenium cell is tired.

The bad news is, new selenium cells are almost impossible to obtain, and if you got one you'd need to calibrate it in the camera by installing an oversize one and then covering larger and larger fractions of the cell until the meter gives correct exposure -- with a Trip that might require fully reassembling the camera multiple times as you adjust the cell's exposed area (though black tape over part of the exposure window should also work).

The camera can be operated manually, by setting to flash mode and changing aperture with the ring, but that locks you to slow (= 1/40) shutter. There's a modification page that tells how to convert to "gravity controlled" shutter speed switching -- hold the camera with the viewfinder above the lens (either horizontally or vertically) for one shutter speed, and below the lens (upside down) for the other. Annoying, but it does work and allows manual control (choice of 1/200 or 1/40 plus all apertures) at the expense of permanently disabling automatic exposure.

Kennyh · Dec 6, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
The Trip (like my Pen EE-S2 half frame) uses a "trap needle" metering system -- the aperture blades are coupled to a pair of blades that close on the meter needle. They should normally start fully closed (aperture will be a tiny square opening, visible through the lens because it's in front of the shutter) and open until the needle traps. If you don't see this happening from the front when you press the shutter release, the aperture blades need cleaning (this is a very common problem with Olympus cameras in this family).

The aperture blades is opening up nicely when pressning the shutter button. Sadly it's probably bad selenium cells causing it then. Gonna try disassembly and clean as much as I can though. I have another one in working order so I guess I can just keep this tired one to practise some CLA.

Thank you for your reply!

Donald Qualls · Dec 6, 2020

Don't completely give up -- there was a fellow in Russia a while ago who was selling replacement sells (made for Kiev 3, 4, and 4M meters, IIRC), new old stock, and some have turned up in other places from time to time. I've also heard of people installing a silicon photocell with some extra bits to correct the voltage curve.

albada · Dec 6, 2020

crumbo said:
Cut this, bend that.... Having repaired countless 100's of these in my Olympus career, this is like fingernails on a chalkboard to me!

Some of us want to control the camera completely, so "automatic" to us is like fingernails on a chalkboard. For us control-freaks, manual control makes an unusable camera usable. As you might have guessed, my car has a manual transmission. But I realize that most people value the convenience of automatic, so this modification is only suitable for some users.

That website describing the manual-control conversion of the Trip is also here:
https://fixfilmcamera.com/Trip35Modific/TripIndex.html
Note: I am the creator of that web-site.

Mark Overton

Donald Qualls · Dec 7, 2020

As I see it, the gravity shutter speed mod is mainly aimed at automatic cameras that are rendered shelf-sitters by a bad selenium cell. I quite like the automatic operation of my Pen EES-2. bit of the meter cell were bad, and there was no practical way to replace the cell, I'd rather convert some kind of manual shutter speed control than be locked at 1/40 as soon as I assume manual aperture control.

Mwktar · Apr 26, 2024

Hi gang, sorry to raise the dead! I’ve got a pen ees2 and have come across this thread based on my search.

Essentially can see the aperture, when set to 2.8, seems to only open maybe 75% of the way sometimes. I was thinking fault but i can see that when set to iso 200 or below it is always wide open, but above it seems pot luck if it open all the way or not

Am I right from this thread that this is almost an “override” where the camera is saying “hang on mate, I know you want manual but this will overexpose this pic” or is it a fault somewhere

The fact is seems to be at higher iso make me *hope*’it’s the former

radialMelt · Apr 26, 2024

I recently came across this thread for the same reason (re: my Trip 35). Another way you could verify it is cover the light meter and observe the aperture and whether it opens fully or not.

Mwktar · Apr 26, 2024

radialMelt said:
I recently came across this thread for the same reason (re: my Trip 35). Another way you could verify it is cover the light meter and observe the aperture and whether it opens fully or not.

Top tip, you’re absolutely right - in a light room with 2.8 it doesn’t completely open, but if I cover it will. What a clever little device

xkaes · Apr 27, 2024

I have not tested all of the numerous Pen E half-frames, and there may be differences between each of them and the Trip 35 as well, but reading the manuals that I've seen, the f-stop ring is only for flash use, which fixed the shutter speed (usually 1/30) and the f-stop should be what you set it at -- assuming the camera is working correctly. Unlike in the non-flash mode where the shutter speed is adjusted according to the film speed, and the f-stop according to the ambient light, in flash mode, the shutter speed is fixed, and the aperture has to be fixed according to the GN of the flash. Otherwise the exposure could be WAY OFF.

albada · Apr 27, 2024

There is a quirk in the Trip 35: If you set it to an f-stop and use it in bright light, the f-stop you get might be larger (smaller aperture) than what you set. But the shutterspeed will be fixed at about 1/40. If you want to use manual f-stops outdoors, either cover the selenium cell or set the ASA as low as it'll go.

xkaes · Apr 27, 2024

Checking the Trip 35 manual indicates that it works like the other Pen E half-frames. In AUTO mode, the shutter speed is either 1/40 or 1/200 -- set by the film speed -- and the meter sets the f-stop according to the available light. When using a flash, the aperture is set manually (according to the GN of the flash and distance to the subject), and the shutter speed is set at 1/40. If your aperture is not what you've selected, I can only conclude that something is not working correctly.

https://www.cameramanuals.org/olympus_pdf/olympus_trip_35.pdf

Olympus Trip 35 question

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