Old roll of verichrome pan film... developing recommendations?

Michael Mutmansky · Dec 27, 2022

Folks,

I found what looks to be a completley shot roll of verichrome pan film in an old Argusflex 75 camera so I want to try to develop it. It was in the camera, and had been shot through to the end but still hadn't been fully wound on to the takeup spool.

I have no idea how it's been treated and also whether there really are any shots on it, but I'm willing to at least make a run at it to see if anything interesting is on the film.

I have Rodinal and HC110 here... unfortunately, I don't think I have any benzotrizole here but I'll check.

Either way on the benzotriazole, I'm looking for recommendations for a developing time. I only have one shot at this so best-guess is going to have to do...

I'll check my chem stash and see if I have any benzotriazole left. I used to have it for Pyrocat HD back when I was shooting ULF.

Thanks,

---Michael

Sirius Glass · Dec 27, 2022

I am looking for the development times for Verichrome Pan in XTOL or replenished XTOL. I was told stock XTOL is 5 minutes at 20°C.

Don_ih · Dec 27, 2022

You don't have just one shot at it. You can cut the roll in half or in 3 pieces. You'll lose a piece of one or two images. I'd develop the last third of the film first. Then I'd adjust and develop the rest. You could get a base time by cutting the very last 1/2 inch off the film and dropping that in your developer with the lights on, seeing how long it takes to turn black, then double that as a development time.

Dwight Anderson · Dec 27, 2022

I used this data sheet for Verichrome Pan and added 15% developing time for the age of the film (HC110 B). Next time I'll try 20%, since the negatives were a bit thin.

https://125px.com/docs/film/kodak/f7-Verichrome.pdf

Paul Howell · Dec 27, 2022

My Kodak Master Darkroom Dataguide 1964, Verichrome Pan HC 110 Dil B, 68 degrees 5 minutes. You can use Rodinal 1:100 stand, or semistand 1 hour. Or use 1:100 leave in refrigerator 24 hours, print VC paper at grade 00.

rcphoto · Dec 27, 2022

I would go for HC110 dil B. I have used this for many old rolls I have found in cameras. I would agree with Paul, probably 5 minutes, maybe give it a LITTLE extra. I think new formulations are weaker?

pentaxuser · Dec 27, 2022

Don Heisz said:
You could get a base time by cutting the very last 1/2 inch off the film and dropping that in your developer with the lights on, seeing how long it takes to turn black, then double that as a development time.

This sounds like a useful rule but is it backed by any scientific study? What test do you apply for deciding what constitutes black?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Don_ih · Dec 27, 2022

pentaxuser said:
This sounds like a useful rule but is it backed by any scientific study? What test do you apply for deciding what constitutes black?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Why don't you try it and see? It's a fairly accepted standard for determining a base development time for an unknown film. Scientific study - of what? Of something you haven't seen before?

Sirius Glass · Dec 27, 2022

pentaxuser said:
This sounds like a useful rule but is it backed by any scientific study? What test do you apply for deciding what constitutes black?

Thanks

pentaxuser

It does not need a scientific study. It does not need endless useless repetitive testing. If the film turns dark in a few minutes the developer is good. This is a quick easy test to see if the developer is good. It does not need to go to black. I save film leaders just for this purpose and I do this test every time that I have not developed in several months as a quick check. I have never lost film with this backup test.

rcphoto · Dec 27, 2022

pentaxuser said:
This sounds like a useful rule but is it backed by any scientific study? What test do you apply for deciding what constitutes black?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Remember, were talking about a film that is at least a couple decades old. We're not processing something for National Geographic. He's just gotta get close, like within 50 percent if he just wants to see what's there.

pentaxuser · Dec 28, 2022

Thanks all for the replies. I was simply trying to work out what constitutes "black " as I presume that determining the "black " time is crucial for the doubling of the time.

It may help if I say what I do to test a developer's efficacy. Let's say it is Xtol for the sake of argument. I have a leader developed and fixed in fresh Xtol for the published Kodak times. Many weeks later I may test the Xtol for its strength so use a leader developed and fixed for the same time in the Xtol that is now many weeks older. On the leader in fresh Xtol I can clearly see a tungsten filament in a 100W light bulb as a clear orange wire. If the same filament looks the same through another leader in the Xtol many weeks old, I know that the Xtol is fine but if it glows brighter then I know that the Xtol hasn't produced as deep a black and may be on its way out

That's not a bad test for a developer's efficacy but the "black then double the time" as described above has the quite different aim of trying to decide the right development time for a film of maybe unknown age, unknown speed and make. It is not to test the developer's strength

In my test for developer strength, my experience is that first hint of "black " occurs much earlier than the final black that is there at the final correct development time. However for the "unknown" film test that involves a doubling of the time of that required to reach black you have to have a "black level" time that results in at least reasonable negs by doubling that time. Thus it seemed to me that it is crucial to have and recognise a standard of black against which the tester can judge the black of the unknown film

I hope this makes sense now and assuming it does, can I ask those who have used this method to state what they would say to someone trying this method about what they do to judge when the black is the right black

Can I take it that one or more of the respondents has used this method with success?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Michael Mutmansky · Dec 28, 2022

Great discussion everyone... I have some good starting times and dilutions.

I do appear to have a small bottle of 1% benzotriazole here... I know that will slow down the development but it may also help avoid excessive fog, so I'm wondering if I should add a bit of that into the developer?

I'm thinking that it isn't really viable since the film wasn't exposed for the loss of speed it will produce (the benzotriazole), so all that does is take away some of the film sensitivity which I can just deal with when I scan the film anyway, so I don't think there is a point to complicating things. Instead, just develop in HC110 B and add a bit to the dev time.

Paul Howell · Dec 28, 2022

In the days of development by inspection it was common to extend development by 50%, I have few packs of ANSCO Pinakryptol Green, the directions is to immerse film in the desensitize bath or 2 minutes, then into the developer, use a green safelight checking every 10 seconds. The safelight needs a 10 watt bulb at 3 feet.

Dwight Anderson · Dec 28, 2022

I posted my results with hc110 b here:

Ansco Cadet B2 - Lost and found film

Waiting patiently for something to develop While sorting through a box of cameras, looking for some to sell, I noticed this handsome fellow had a roll of film left in it. It was on exposure eight, and hopefully, if it hadn't yet been opened by some curious person, might have some images on it. I...

www.cameravignette.com

I've done several rolls of verichrome pan, the same way, with varying results. There's always an image, but storage conditions probably dictate the outcome

Don_ih · Dec 29, 2022

pentaxuser said:
Can I take it that one or more of the respondents has used this method with success?

"Black" means that the film looks like it's finished developing. And you will get some success developing an unknown film by this method. But it's not going to be perfect. It will, however, normally prevent you from over- or under-developing the film to an extent that the result is useless.

Michael Mutmansky said:
small bottle of 1% benzotriazole

Include benzo in any testing you do - and use the same amount in your final developer. It doesn't make film lose speed (not in any real way). It slows development - more aggressively in the shadow areas. So, overall development takes a bit longer.
A little is all you need.

Agulliver · Dec 29, 2022

Verichrome Pan seems indestructible. I've developed "found film" over 50 years old and shot expired film of similar age and got good results with ID-11 (=D76). No fancy technique, no anti-fog. VP just seems to be able to withstand anything except perhaps a nuclear explosion.

However there's no harm in testing a piece as described to ensure your chosen developer and dilution works.

pentaxuser · Dec 29, 2022

Don Heisz said:
"Black" means that the film looks like it's finished developing. And you will get some success developing an unknown film by this method. But it's not going to be perfect. It will, however, normally prevent you from over- or under-developing the film to an extent that the result is useless.

Thanks for this Do I take it that I should judge the black by the appearance of the leader from the moment it turns black in the tray i.e the moment it looks totally black in the container in which it is developed it in daylight or normal room light?

Can I also ask if you have actually tried this method with an unknown film and if you have, do you have any examples of negatives from the unknown film that you could show?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Don_ih · Dec 30, 2022

pentaxuser said:
Can I also ask if you have actually tried this method with an unknown film and if you have, do you have any examples of negatives from the unknown film that you could show?

I tried it on the roll of Verichrome Pan that was in my postcard camera when I bought it. However, that roll only had two very blurry images on it - which I never scanned.

pentaxuser · Dec 30, 2022

Don Heisz said:
I tried it on the roll of Verichrome Pan that was in my postcard camera when I bought it. However, that roll only had two very blurry images on it - which I never scanned.

Thanks Don Can I take it that despite the blurriness the negatives were reasonably well developed? The key to what constitutes "black" may lie in a video demonstrating this method in which viewers can see what the black actually looks like so they can judge their "blacks" against what they have seen

I have yet to find such a video but in the interim what may be sensible for me to do is to see for myself what a "half time black" looks like with a manufacturer of a specific developer's time for full development for a particular film.

pentaxuser

redbandit · Dec 30, 2022

use the rodinal, no guessing there

Old roll of verichrome pan film... developing recommendations?

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