A new lab-scale coating machine is about $250k-$500k (I’ve checked). Then you need all the other equipment... cutters, packagers, etc.
Basic emulsion making is fairly easy. You can make a variety of coating devices up to and including R&D lab-grade coating blades for coating a layer at a time. An actual test-scale (let alone full size) coating machine would probably cost millions if newly built to the necessary specifications.
This is just a press release issued in 1953, and there is no academic scientific study to confirm it.
- And this is a very, very ancient history - Life has evolved a lot after this date, even the chemicals have improved very much.
- I know lab technicians have been working in Egypt Film Studio for 30 years and have not had anything.
A new lab-scale coating machine is about $250k-$500k (I’ve checked). Then you need all the other equipment... cutters, packagers, etc.
God bless you ,,Firstly, it was in a technical disclosure in the pre-eminent motion picture industry technical journal - peer reviewed etc. If you had done even the most cursory search you would have found out how hugely important a researcher one of the authors was to the invention of colour neg films as we know them today. Other Kodak researchers (Richard Henn for example) also have commented in other publications on the dangers of PPD and certain of its derivatives - and that you shouldn't be dabbling your bare hands in them. Secondly, if you 'improve' CD-1, CD-2 to make them less sensitising to people, you get CD-3, CD-4, CD-6.
Quite apart from housing the machine in a suitably clean environment where it won't be affected by vibration etc. I recall that the air filtration quality is a key difference between test and production machinery. What type of coating head did those machines have & how many layers did it offer?
God bless you ,,In this toxicology debate one must not overlook the type of processing applied: if a colour process was free to everyone or in practice restricted to processing lines at a manufacturer or few certified labs.
A million dollars is not a big sum for any investor with a great deal.A new lab-scale coating machine is about $250k-$500k (I’ve checked). Then you need all the other equipment... cutters, packagers, etc.
In this toxicology debate one must not overlook the type of processing applied: if a colour process was free to everyone or in practice restricted to processing lines at a manufacturer or few certified labs.
Secondly, performing the R&D on both film development and production engineering is a rather involved task. If you're interested in some of the more general considerations in engineering a color film, please see the posts of Photo_Engineer, which I know you are aware of. It's a careful balancing act and getting it right across 9 emulsions and yet more layers just takes time and manpower. This means that (1) the lead time of such a product will be several years at best, and (2) it will occupy R&D manpower that companies like Ilford also need for simply keeping the existing product range going - think of re-engineering products due to disruptions in the supply chain, troubleshooting quality issues, assisting partners in optimizing their products for toll manufacturing, etc. Embarking on the adventure of a whole new range of products with a significantly higher degree of complexity is not something a company takes lightly, and only something that is feasible for companies that are doing exceedingly well. Sadly, none of the major photographic materials companies fall in that category. Some of them are doing fairly well considering the circumstances, some have simply been struggling for decades now. This brings me to the third issue:
Undertaking the R&D and production system setup requires a significant investment. Someone like Henning Serger may be able to give you some figures, but it's certainly not going to be a few hundred thousand dollars, or even a couple of million. It's not just the R&D manpower, production engineering, but also acquiring the necessary equipment (which for the largest part will have to be custom-engineered and -built), qualifying the production process, training production and QA personnel, implementing a marketing strategy and playing the sales/distribution channels to push your product. The sort of investment this requires simply isn't pocket money that they have lying about on a shelf for all but one of the companies active in the film business (more on the exception below).
.................So, in short, if you want to seduce a company like Ilford/ Harman to produce a color film, I think that at least where we are now, in 2020, you're simply barking up the wrong tree, and it doesn't take an insider in this industry or an MBA to recognize this.
A British used camera dealer went to Japan and established an online store. He buys used cameras from Japan and sells them to the world. His business kept on booming until I heard he was building a lab and buying a machine to make a black and white film. Does that make sense?
- The same example happened in Finland, and there is already now a Finnish black-white film, but it is designed for the icy freezes.
There is also a Japanese investor negotiating with the Communist Party of China to rent a production line from the Lucky Corporation of China, which stopped the manufacture of the analog film. Does this make sense?
- Lomographic Foundation established a small factory in Austria to manufacture a color film, but it is very expensive, mysterious and unreliable.
. ADOX has bought a coating machine from Agfa Heirs and is building a production line right now - they are walking slowly but they lack scientific expertise.
To get a large number of color film with different flavors and from the production of different companies at an acceptable and fair price.
I do my best to persuade and influence Filmotic, Ilford and Foma - why not
- Away from logical theoretical calculations, I just threw a stone into the stagnant pond, I am just a man who lives next to the pyramids - I am tired of using the cheap expired film - I am tired of developing those films that have expired since 1998 and I am bored with the unpleasant surprises that result from these films And dream about the availability of new and varied brands and products, one way or another.
... Foma can only make simple one-layer BW emulsions
For some reason I thought their coater could do two layers plus supercoat in one pass - likely because I was assuming that Fomapan 400 was two layer like most faster films?
You replied to my breath while writing my posts.No, not at all. But simply because your story is not true at all: This dealer for used cameras has neither a lab, nor any own machinery for BW film production. Until 2017 he was even not able to develop a BW film by himself at home: In 2017 he published an article on his own blog about his experience developing his first BW film at home in 2017.
The BW film he is offering (since spring 2016, by the way) is just former Agfa (Belgium) BW surveillance/aerial film (therefore "Made in Belgium" is on the boxes). A film type which was coated last time at Agfa in 2008 (the film was then discontinued). So what you indeed have here is long expired leftover film stock of a long discontinued film. The converting of this film is done on contract basis by Harman for him.
Again, not true: The Finnish offering by Camera Rescue is also an already existing film. I know the Camera Rescue Team, very nice guys. And they have never said that they have an own film production. They are honest. I know where this film is derived from, but cannot tell you because of a NDA.
Lucky is again making their SHD 100 BW film.
Again not true: Lomography has no own film production. Neither for BW, nor for colour. They buy all their films from the established film manufacturers.
ADOX has no general lack of scientific expertise. Their challenges are currently more in other fields. As a very small "start-up-like" manufacturer they have to go in small steps. And concentrating on their main challenges. I know the factory there, too.
Why not? Because it is completely unrealistic and a complete waste of time! Neither Ilford, nor FilmoTec or Foma are economically able to make a colour film which could be competitive to Kodak and Fuji. Even if they would succeed after years of R&D: Then the films would be much more expensive and much worse compared to Fuji and Kodak.
For FilmoTec and Foma it is completely impossible in general, by the way. E.g. Filmotec has no own coating machine (they need a contract coater), and Foma can only make simple one-layer BW emulsions: For a modern colour film you need about 15 layers (some Fuji films have even 21 layers).
If these companies would start making colour films, it would kill them!!
You best you can do is
- buy fresh film from Kodak and Fujifilm colour on a regular basis
- support Kodak and Fujifilm: the higher the demand and the sales for their colour films, the higher the chance of more films coming back
- build a local scene of film shooters, teach the young, promote film use in your region and / or country.
Best regards,
Henning
It is in no one’s interest for the color movie monopoly to remain in the hands of an evil Japanese company and an American company struggling and struggling for restructuring.
In theory, your words may be correct,
........ but the most important obstacle is the high price of color film,
- I have a lot to say in this field, but I really do not want to look like someone who loves controversy only.There is currently only one manufacturer of colour movie / cinema film: Eastman Kodak.Therefore there is no "evil Japanese company" in movie / cinema film production.
If you have meant Fujifilm: They had to stop producing of colour movie / cinema film in 2013 due to decreasing demand. We should not forget that also Kodak evaluated in 2014 to stop production (that was a bit later officially explained by the former Kodak CEO). Fortunately at that time the deal with the Hollywood studios saved movie film production at Eastman Kodak.
And Fujifilm is not an "evil company": They certainly made some severe mistakes in the past. But in contrast to other colour film manufacturers like Agfa, Konica and Ferrania, Fujifilm has continued film production. And they make some of the best films ever made, oustanding quality materials. And Fujifilm has saved E6 color reversal film! When Kodak stopped all their transparency films in 2012, Fujifilm fortunately didn't make the same mistake and kept on with E6. Films and chemistry.
Without Fujifilm and their continued reversal film production we would have never seen the Ektachrome reintroduction. Because if Fujifilm would have also stopped E6, the whole infrastructure with labs would have gone in the meantime.
Not in theory, but in real world. I have described the situation as it currently is. I have visited five different film manufacturers, two of them also producing colour film, and a third who wants to make colour in the future. I have seen the production and have talked to the engineers. I am in permanent contact with lots of manufacturers. And I have designed economic market evaluation methods which have been proven to be very precise in the last 14 years. Already in 2006 I have forecasted the market bottom in 2015/16 and the following film revival.
What are you paying for a roll of ColorPlus 200 or Fuji C200?
I know that in lots of emerging markets the problem is mainly ridiculous high import customs/taxes and or / bureaucratic hurdles implemented by the governments of these countries. That is for example the problem in India and Brasil. Much too high customs, initially implemented to protect the own local industry. But as neither India nor Brasil have any film/photopaper production (anymore) for a long time, these customs only hurt the local people.
In such cases the film manufacturers are not responsible at all for too high film prices.
Best regards,
Henning
Hello Lachlan,
afaik the Foma films are single layer films. That is from a very reliable source. An expert who has seen the production there. I cannot go into further details because of a NDA.
There is a reason why Foma films are so cheap. They are not producing on the same technology level as other BW film manufacturers like Ilford. They know that their main competitive advantage is: price. To keep that advantage compromises in other areas have to be made. There is no free lunch.
Best regards,
Henning
Non Disclosure Agreement. A very common phenomenon when entering any kind of collaboration with especially larger businesses but sometimes smaller ones as well. Can be between two (or more) businesses or a business and a private person. Intended to manage the risk of leakage of business-sensitive information to third parties while allowing for fairly unhindered information sharing between the participants.
@mohmad khatab :
You should contact
- Fujifilm X-Ray business: https://www.fujifilm.eu/de/produkte/medizinische-systeme/roentgenfilme
- Foma X-Ray business: https://www.foma.cz/en/dental
- Agfa X-Ray business: https://medimg.agfa.com/main/x-ray-film-and-screen-systems/
- Carestream X-Ray business: https://www.carestream.com/en/us/me...aphy/film-systems/dental-film-and-accessories
Best regards,
Henning
No, not at all. But simply because your story is not true at all: This dealer for used cameras has neither a lab, nor any own machinery for BW film production. Until 2017 he was even not able to develop a BW film by himself at home: In 2017 he published an article on his own blog about his experience developing his first BW film at home in 2017.
The BW film he is offering (since spring 2016, by the way) is just former Agfa (Belgium) BW surveillance/aerial film (therefore "Made in Belgium" is on the boxes). A film type which was coated last time at Agfa in 2008 (the film was then discontinued). So what you indeed have here is long expired leftover film stock of a long discontinued film. The converting of this film is done on contract basis by Harman for him.
Again, not true: The Finnish offering by Camera Rescue is also an already existing film. I know the Camera Rescue Team, very nice guys. And they have never said that they have an own film production. They are honest. I know where this film is derived from, but cannot tell you because of a NDA.
Lucky is again making their SHD 100 BW film.
Again not true: Lomography has no own film production. Neither for BW, nor for colour. They buy all their films from the established film manufacturers.
ADOX has no general lack of scientific expertise. Their challenges are currently more in other fields. As a very small "start-up-like" manufacturer they have to go in small steps. And concentrating on their main challenges. I know the factory there, too.
Why not? Because it is completely unrealistic and a complete waste of time! Neither Ilford, nor FilmoTec or Foma are economically able to make a colour film which could be competitive to Kodak and Fuji. Even if they would succeed after years of R&D: Then the films would be much more expensive and much worse compared to Fuji and Kodak.
For FilmoTec and Foma it is completely impossible in general, by the way. E.g. Filmotec has no own coating machine (they need a contract coater), and Foma can only make simple one-layer BW emulsions: For a modern colour film you need about 15 layers (some Fuji films have even 21 layers).
If these companies would start making colour films, it would kill them!!
You best you can do is
- buy fresh film from Kodak and Fujifilm colour on a regular basis
- support Kodak and Fujifilm: the higher the demand and the sales for their colour films, the higher the chance of more films coming back
- build a local scene of film shooters, teach the young, promote film use in your region and / or country.
Best regards,
Henning
There is currently only one manufacturer of colour movie / cinema film: Eastman Kodak.Therefore there is no "evil Japanese company" in movie / cinema film production.
If you have meant Fujifilm: They had to stop producing of colour movie / cinema film in 2013 due to decreasing demand. We should not forget that also Kodak evaluated in 2014 to stop production (that was a bit later officially explained by the former Kodak CEO). Fortunately at that time the deal with the Hollywood studios saved movie film production at Eastman Kodak.
And Fujifilm is not an "evil company": They certainly made some severe mistakes in the past. But in contrast to other colour film manufacturers like Agfa, Konica and Ferrania, Fujifilm has continued film production. And they make some of the best films ever made, oustanding quality materials. And Fujifilm has saved E6 color reversal film! When Kodak stopped all their transparency films in 2012, Fujifilm fortunately didn't make the same mistake and kept on with E6. Films and chemistry.
Without Fujifilm and their continued reversal film production we would have never seen the Ektachrome reintroduction. Because if Fujifilm would have also stopped E6, the whole infrastructure with labs would have gone in the meantime.
Not in theory, but in real world. I have described the situation as it currently is. I have visited five different film manufacturers, two of them also producing colour film, and a third who wants to make colour in the future. I have seen the production and have talked to the engineers. I am in permanent contact with lots of manufacturers. And I have designed economic market evaluation methods which have been proven to be very precise in the last 14 years. Already in 2006 I have forecasted the market bottom in 2015/16 and the following film revival.
What are you paying for a roll of ColorPlus 200 or Fuji C200?
I know that in lots of emerging markets the problem is mainly ridiculous high import customs/taxes and or / bureaucratic hurdles implemented by the governments of these countries. That is for example the problem in India and Brasil. Much too high customs, initially implemented to protect the own local industry. But as neither India nor Brasil have any film/photopaper production (anymore) for a long time, these customs only hurt the local people.
In such cases the film manufacturers are not responsible at all for too high film prices.
Best regards,
Henning
How many film factory's have you been to exactly?
Lance
Hello Lance,
so far I've been in five different film factories in four different countries. This year another film factory in another country will most probably follow.
And yes, you are right: It always has been a uniqe, wonderful and unforgettable experience!
In addition I have visited lots of other photo product factories too. Like camera manufacturers and lab equipment manufacturers.
Best regards,
Henning
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