Old film developed - came out completely black.

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I sometimes read about old films found into cameras, and of people that enjoy developing and printing these old forgotten pictures.

I recently went to our family house and pick up my father's camera; I realised by rewinding that there still was a film sitting inside. It turned out to be a 24 frames FP4 dating more or less 15 years ago. I tried to develop it, as those could have been the very last pictures taken by my father, perhaps with some portraits of my mother. But unfortunately, to my highest surprise, it came out completely black - side bands, sprocket holes and all.

Before someone suggests the obvious, the magazine was of the current factory sealed type, so no mistakes in realoading a reusable cartridge or opening the sides by mistake. The frame counter was at 6, so no way that the entire film could have been fully exposed to light by mistake. Finally, I developed it in a two-reels tank together with another FP4 that came out absolutely perfect, so no stray light or fogging or wrong chemicals inside the tank etc.

I sometimes read that pre-developing agents are added to current emulsions, and I wonder if it has to be expected today that a film "only" 15 years old can no longer be developed as it is completely darkened by ageing, while older films could once be developed even after decades still showing the period pictures.

The only other thing I can think of is that a 55mm f:1,4 Takumar lens was mounted on the camera, which I believe has lanthanum or thorium glass. But even if this was the effect of prolonged exposure to weak radiations, I somehow expected the film to be irregularly darkened, perhaps with "printed" shadows of the thicker camera metallic parts. The film is instead very uniformly black.

What else might have happened?
 

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koraks

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I'm sorry to hear your time capsule turned out to be a bust.

It's anyone's guess as to what might have happened, but 15 years is a long time. By your description, there's nothing you did wrong that might have explained this. Just a lack of good luck, this time!
 

Sanug

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It may be just fog caused by the natural radioactive radiation. Or excessive degradation by the storage conditions (e.g. heat)
 

Agulliver

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I am sorry that the film was a bust, it doesn't sound like you did anything wrong.

15 years really isn't *that* long compared to some of the films I and other members have developed. And FP4 should hold up well. Normal developing should have yielded nice images.

The only thing I can think of is....could the camera have been tampered with by various people in the intervening 15 years? Is there a chance someone "playing" with the camera shot the entire roll with the back open, then rewound it to the start and fired off 6 frames?

But even then, the tail should not have been fogged. I take it the tail was also fogged?

I don't know if a slightly radioactive lens would cause that much damage. It seems unlikely but I don't have sufficient experience.
 

pentaxuser

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It's a real shame and a puzzle. I can't recall anyone reporting this before - well not under the circumstance you describe. Can natural radiation do this in 15 years? If so, is your father's house in an unusually high natural radiation area? This may sound bizarre- it does to me even before I say it - but might your late father have taken it close to an area of unnatural radiation without realising it or without realising how much damage having a camera close to such an area does to film?

If the blackness is that solid and regular it sort of suggests to me that the whole film was subject to light( excluding possible reasons above) but if that were the case then why return it to the camera and wind it on to frame 6?

It will be interesting to hear if anyone else has experienced this in the same circumstances

pentaxuser
 

Andrew O'Neill

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I've never heard of developing agents added to film emulsions... I know they were/have been added to RC papers, though.
It's weird that the entire roll is black, rebates and all. I've been going through a box of 4x5 HIE, expired in '67 with no issue, other than higher B+F than normal.
 

Sharktooth

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If your father was shooting B&W film, he probably knew a lot about cameras and photography.

I'm guessing he used this roll of film as a "dummy" roll to test out the winding system of his cameras. I do that too. Outdated film could be used, or a film that got accidentally exposed (accidentally opening the back, etc.). You don't care about the "dummy" roll, so you could use it to check the rewind system while observing with the back open. There are other possibilities as well. That seems to me the most likely scenario.

No lens radiation will cause this overwhelming and uniform effect. The only other reasonable explanation would be processing error. Was it processed by a lab, or by yourself at home? Possible, but still unlikely.
 

JPD

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That's what I'm thinking as well. I have a 135-cartridge and a roll of 120-film I use for testing purposes right here in my drawer. Both films would turn completely black if developed.
 

Agulliver

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There is nowhere on earth that natural radiation could do that to a film in 15 years. Even after 50 years in "high" radon areas you are never going to get anything like a totally fogged film.

I am leaning towards the idea of it being used as a test film, perhaps to observe the shutter/wind/rewind mechanism with the back open.

But that still leaves the tail of the film inside the cassette. We have been told it was a factory FP4 cassette. Was the tail also uniformly fogged?
 

Ivo Stunga

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Can natural radiation do this in 15 years?
Not that I'm aware of. There are lenses that contain radioactive elements to improve image quality. That content doesn't make these lenses dangerous if used as intended - not swallowed or ground to dust and inhaled.
Geiger counters just show a number - like a thermometer. Not every number represents danger - like a thermometer... I have measured such a lens myself and it only emitted SOME Alpha (weakest, stopped by glass/skin/cardboard...) radiation from the front, back was completely silent. Meaning in this case that the weak ionizing radiation was 1) never "projected" at film to begin with and 2) was stopped by camera body in case some particles got leaked through the back over time. Fun fact - only couple of places in Chernobyl emitted more than my lens did - compliments and glory to the cleanup heroes where the cleanup was done, making it literally tourist-safe.


Dummy/test roll seems plausible.
 
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Ivo Stunga

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npl

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I once developped a roll of fp4 that have been sitting for 10 years in the back of a camera. A little fogging but otherwise it was fine.

So I don't think age or radiation are to be blamed, the "dummy roll" explanation is the most likely.
 
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Another, although more remote possibly could be chemical fogging. Any chance the camera was exposed to unusual gases/fumes?
 

titrisol

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20yr old FP4 might present some fogging but nothing like this; that film was fully expose to light at some point.
I have developed Ilford films from the mid90s and they come OK (not great)

Maybe someone opened the back of the camera in those 15yrs? Or maybe that was your dad's test film roll?

The 50/1.4 takumar is mildly radioactive and can't do that even in that period of time, at worst frame 6 or 7 would have some fog.
 

Sirius Glass

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Such a loss! We are sure that every frame had a stunning photograph and they are all lost forever.
 
OP
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Thanks everyone for your kind and committed replies!

But that still leaves the tail of the film inside the cassette. We have been told it was a factory FP4 cassette. Was the tail also uniformly fogged?

Exactly, that's the point. I cannot rule out wether the film was entirely pulled out of the cassette and then rewinded and then shot for few frames (people do the most weird things for the most weird reasons), however in this case at least a small stripe of unexposed film had to be left inside the cassette, which was found factory-sealed. But no: it is uniformly black all over, just as shown in picture.

I would exclude chemical fogging as the camera was held in a bedhead, in a normal living environment.

Radon gas or the radiation of the thoriated glass of the lens has been ruled out by others, even though in my opinion it could have been the only possible explanation.

So nevermind, another "mistery film", possibly not the last we will happen to meet. Thanks again for replying!
 

Ivo Stunga

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If it'd be natural background radiation, then we'd all suffer from this equally. Alas, we don't.

Some lenses have hot rear element, so you can check up your lens and see... and rule that out.
 
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Being a physicist, I actually happen to own a portable scintillation counter. However I never happened to see figures about how much radiation is needed over time to blacken a film of given sensitivity. Has anyone ever seen a table, a graph or such?
 

eli griggs

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Being a physicist, I actually happen to own a portable scintillation counter. However I never happened to see figures about how much radiation is needed over time to blacken a film of given sensitivity. Has anyone ever seen a table, a graph or such?

I'd start exploring x-ray techs manuals, both hospitals and industrial, like the machines that are used to validate good welds on tall buildings, and maybe, the hand held devices used in scrap yards to tell the operator, exactly what and how much of a percentage of scrap in incoming pick-up trucks, with a link to a PC or ticket tape.

Eniwetok, radiation one the beach of Runit is more radioactive than the one hundred and ten tons of irradiated that was entombed in that domed atomic blast Crater on that island.

I'd bet JPL has date that'll prove useful in your inquiry.
 

Ivo Stunga

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Is it even a thing?

Well, we've seen WW2 films being found and developed, showing fogged images, but images - instead of uniform black.
 

koraks

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Has anyone ever seen a table, a graph or such?

The short answer is that it's complicated - as a physicist, you're aware of this, I'm sure. In theory, you could approach the answer by regarding gamma rays as regular photons and then approximating the required exposure in gamma rays by relying on visible light data. That would probably get you in the ballpark, give or take an order of magnitude. However, unless you stored that camera on top of a spent fuel pool in a nuclear power plant, I wouldn't bother trying to calculate this. The fact that plenty of people routinely use similar film that's expired by a similar amount of time and note only limited levels of fog, should be sufficient information to decide that background radiation won't be the culprit.
 

reddesert

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The premise is that something unusual happened in the environment of this film vs the average film that isn't totally fogged after 15 years, with the appeal to radiation damage being that it was an unusually high household radiation environment. I think that is unlikely. (For example, one hears of film being recovered from high-altitude mountains or glaciers after decades and being developed without complete fogging.)

My first thought is still light strike with opening/reclosing the back - the tail of the film also being fogged is evidence against this, although there's very little tail remaining inside the cassette if the film was fully wound out at some point. My second thought is heat fogging.

Photographic film was used as the detector in many early experiments with X-rays and high energy radiation. Effects of radiation on film should be fairly well known because of the long use of film badge dosimeters as personal monitors of radiation exposure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_badge_dosimeter
There's probably plenty of material in the health physics literature on how these are calibrated, somewhere, in terms of Roentgens to filter thickness and exposure density.
 
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