Old film curves

kintatsu · Feb 10, 2014

Does anyone know where to find curves and other data for the following old color films?

I'm particularly interested in finding for;
All the old Ilford color films
Kodak Monopack circa 1950
Kodak Monopack circa 1955 and
Technicolor Monopack from the late 40s through the 60s

Any help would be appreciated!

Thanks!

AgX · Feb 10, 2014

To my knowledge they never were published. Spreading characterictical curves is relatively new to the industry.

Ian Grant · Feb 10, 2014

Curves for B&w films were available in the 1040's, I'll check my Eastman Kodak Data-books (40's & 50's) for the colour films. May have Ilford data as well somewhere.

Ian

Ian Grant · Feb 10, 2014

No curves in the Kodak's Color Handbook early 1950's, that was part of the major Kodak professional reference set of the era. Looks like mine had possibly never been used as the packaging is still in the box.

Ian

MDR · Feb 10, 2014

Technicolor Monopack was basically a low contrast version of Kodachrome designed for Technicolor by Kodak. It's a motion picture stock and not a still photography stock.

You can find some info about it in Film and Its Techniques by Raymond Spottiswoode (1958)
The journal of the society of motion picture engineers from the late 1930's to late 40's might have the info you're looking for. The american cinematographer magazine is another good resource for this type of information.

In the 1960's Ilford published the Ilford book of colour

Good luck

Photo Engineer · Feb 10, 2014

Kodak did publish curves in the US. I have no references though because most of this is long gone. If I do find any, I will post something. Basically, all film curves were shorter in latitude and had either upward or downward bows in them. It was difficult to keep the curves straight.

PE

MDR · Feb 11, 2014

Maybe you can find more info under the monopacks both technicolor and Kodak's real name KODACHROME Professional Film, Type 5267 (Also Eastman Type 5267), later Version were 5268 (16mm only in 1946)7255 (16mm only in 1958). Eastmancolor pretty much ended the reign of Monopack films in the 1950.

MDR · Feb 11, 2014

This might interest you it's the original patent for Kodak Monopack film Karl (or Karel) Schinzel was named as the inventor (another famous name who got shafted by the powers that be at Kodak) http://www.freepatentsonline.com/2231684.pdf

Photo Engineer · Feb 11, 2014

IDK how he got shafted by EK, but the patent shows no curves.

There are some color curves in "Color Photography" by Evans Hanson and Brewer IIRC.

PE

MDR · Feb 11, 2014

Ron according to the biographies (czech and austrian) I've read Kodak screwed him over when they obtained his patents most of his research was done in his pre-kodak days. According to the same Biographies he returned to Austria a disillusioned man. The link to the patent was intended as additional info.

kintatsu · Feb 11, 2014

To all who've replied, my sincere thanks for the tips.

I've read bits of the patent and found it interesting. I'm still looking for the curves data for the old films. I can't find the recommended books readily available at my library, so will have to look into getting them as time and money permit.

The only thing I could find on the Ilford book is an old price list from the 60s.

Concerning the Eastmancolor films, I've only been able to find more recent data, due to Kodak re-using the numbers. For instance, 5247 and 5248 among others.

I hope to see some curves from the old films, as I learn better seeing the information and graphs. It also gives me something to play with as I work to visualizing the print colors and effects of different films. I also have an interesting in trying some hybrid stuff using the old data. I like the look of some of the old movies, too.

Again, thanks to all of you!

MDR · Feb 11, 2014

I just saw that you are located in Bavaria the Deutsches Museum has a library that might have some relevant literature

kintatsu · Feb 13, 2014

I hadn't thought about the museum. They do have a library, so I'll have to check it out.

Jack Theakston · Feb 13, 2014

I just came across this forum (because of this post, actually). A very interesting subject, actually.

Many curve charts WERE published through the Journal of the Society of Motion Picture Engineers. Almost all of these from the relevant periods are now available through www.mediahist.org, which now has a search function that you can use quite easily.

Where you're going to get hung up is the effect that printing these films dye-transfer would have on the end product. Dye transfer prints were opticals by nature, therefore you're going to have an exponential increase in contrast, which is largely the secret behind the Technicolor "pop."

kintatsu · Feb 14, 2014

Thank you for the link. It's a dream for anyone who loves old cinema stuff and technologies! I spent a couple hours there already, with more planned.

MDR · Feb 14, 2014

Jack thank you for the link

BetterSense · Feb 14, 2014

Even modern datasheets only seem to publish parts of the curve. For some reason they just stop at some arbitrary density. I have no idea what the shoulder looks like fir TMX, because it's not published.

AgX · Feb 14, 2014

BetterSense, there is a thread just on this topic:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

kintatsu · Feb 15, 2014

Wow. Looking through the Media History site is like being 8 and going to Disney. I found some stuff on Ansco, some older Kodak films, and even more. It just takes some searching to find what you want. The most useful area was in the SMPE/SMPTE journals. I might even find curves for Gevaert. Strangely, I haven't found as much on Technicolor yet, although using Eastman Color 5247/5248 from the mid 50's is the same, as it was licensed by Technicolor from Kodak, if I recall rightly.

Some of the processes are described and make it understandable, too.

Now, I just need to find something on Ilford's old color films from the 50s and 60s. I haven't been able to find anything other than mentions of them making it. They apparently made color slides, negative films, and MP films. There has to something somewhere!

Thanks for the replies and advice.

Chris Livsey · Feb 15, 2014

Ilford are still in business why not contact them? Mobberley Cheshire UK

Photo Engineer · Feb 15, 2014

Chris, that may or may not be enough of an address for the rest of the world outside of the UK.

PE

Chris Livsey · Feb 16, 2014

PE
Indeed not, I was on son No.2's i-pad at the time

ILFORD PHOTO, Ilford Way, Mobberley, Knutsford, Cheshire, WA16 7JL, England

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/contactform.asp

They do have a USA office but the "boffins" are at Cheshire as are the archives.
I am sure they will help, indeed if you contact Simon Galley on APUG he can probably give you a direct contact.

kintatsu · Feb 16, 2014

I had thought of asking Simon, but I'm quite sure he has enough on his plate. I did, however, contact Ilford and am awaiting their reply. I hope they are able to provide me some information that I can use! I'm not sure if they will or not, as the information is quite old. Thank you for the tip.

Chris Livsey · Feb 16, 2014

They had an impressive display of "past glories" when I visited on the last tour, I don't think they are likely to have completely gutted their archive. You never know when that may be useful to fall back on.
I was only thinking Simon could have directed the enquiry but it's not as if they don't know each other a "new starter" we met had been there 12 years.

kintatsu · May 25, 2014

Just an update.. Ilford never replied to, to my initial or follow up requests. I may have to write them a letter. I've also received no further information about the curves.

I will, however, keep looking!

Old film curves

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