Old, exposed Kodak BW400CN in Rodinal ?

Yaeli · Jun 25, 2021

Hi all !

So, my best friend gave me 2 rolls of Kodak BW400CN that he shot somewhere between 10 and 20 years ago. They have been stored without any precaution, no doubt subjected to heat (he lives in the South of France), maybe humidity and what not. I've read (here : https://mrleica.com/tag/expired-kodak-bw400cn/) that this C41 B&W film can be developped in B&W chemicals with decent results, so that's what I'm going to try and do. The guy doesn't recommend Rodinal, but it's all I have, and my friend doesn't really care whether the grain is big. So my question is not really about the possibility of doing it, but the "method" for old exposed film :
1) The only recipe I can find is semi-stand in Rodinal 1+100, but I've never tried it, and I've also read that higher concentrations might be better for old exposed films. Do you have any idea what other dilution I might use (1+25 or 1+50) and for what time ?
2) Should I "compensate" for the age of the film in some way ? Longer developping time ? Higher concentration ?
3) Are there any precautions to take for loading the film on a reel ? Is there a risk of the film breaking ?

Thanks beforehand for your help !
Yael.

reddesert · Jun 25, 2021

You might get more answers in the B&W or color forums, since alternative processes usually refers to things like cyanotypes, palladium etc (generally non-silver processes).

Is there a reason not to process it in C-41? 10 or 20 year old color negative film is likely to produce an image but with color shifts, but with BW400CN of course there isn't color anyway.

I would not overdevelop it, because there's likely some fogging and overdeveloping will increase that.

I don't think you have to worry about breaking the film. I've developed 20 year old B&W film a number of times without any issues with the film base. If it were 60 or 100 years old that might be an issue. The only thing to be aware of is if it smells powerfully like vinegar (breakdown of acetate film base), but that seems unlikely with film that is only 20 years old.

koraks · Jun 26, 2021

Best results will be obtained by processing this the way it's intended to -C41. Any lab (they still exist!) that does color c41 can do this. Usually fairly cheaply as well.
Rodinal is probably the poorest choice. You'll get a image (develop for 10-12 minutes or so), but grain will be big and most importantly shadow detail will suffer, especially given the state of this particularly roll.

pentaxuser · Jun 26, 2021

I have no experience of Kodak BW400CN of this age nor any experience of it with Rodinal but if that is all you have then unless you hear from someone who has used Rodinal with it, I think that semi stand Rodinal might be worth a try. I'd make sure that you use at least 5-6 mls of Rodinal but if you decide to do both films at once then the tank needed should be big enough to accept say 5ml at 1+100

I would be interested in seeing the results. Good luck

pentaxuser

Don_ih · Jun 26, 2021

It's risky to use less than 5ml of Rodinal per full roll of film. You should probably test a foot or so of one of the rolls. First, make 250ml of 1:50 Rodinal. Put the very end of the film in that - the part that's been exposed to daylight. Develop that in a beaker, timing how long it takes to turn as black as it gets. Then develop 6-10" of a roll for twice that amount of time (in a dev tank) and see the result. If it's too thin, adjust the time. I doubt it will be too dense.

Generally, C41 film developed in b&w chemistry is borderline garbage. It's crappy to scan and almost impossible to enlarge.

removed account4 · Jun 26, 2021

hi Yael

has the film been stored in somewhat stable conditions ? the only film that I had trouble with nothing coming out on it was that film and it was given to me by a mini lab that went out of business for free.
I shot it, and developed it and it was blank...
do you have any dektol or similar PRINT developer ? I have great luck processing c41 film and e6 film in print developer 1:6 for about 6-7 mins. I've never used rodinal or hc110 which some people swear by,
I figure its old film it needs contrast and to have the fog cut, dektol is great for that..
there will be a little bit of an orange mask ( what you get when you "cross process" c41 in black / white )
if you use a coffee based developer ( caffenol ) and put a little ( 20cc / L ) of the same print developer in it, the stain from the coffee sometimes masks the orange mask. i've scanned hundreds of frames and enlarged handfuls of 35mm, 120 and contact printed 4x5 that were processed in coffee and print developer, its easier to remove the mask if there is a problem with a scan

have fun with your adventure!
John

pentaxuser · Jun 26, 2021

Don Heisz said:
Generally, C41 film developed in b&w chemistry is borderline garbage. It's crappy to scan and almost impossible to enlarge.

Well I have seen here on Photrio and on IlfordPhoto a good number of examples of C41 film developed in b&w chemistry that were certainly not borderline garbage

The OP may by now have left us to our own devices in disgust and I could not blame him if he has but assuming he still retains an interest in an answer on what to do if he uses Rodinal, is there no-one on Photrio who has used Rodinal with C41 chromogenic b&w film that can give him the benefit of his experience?

I have a feeling that based on his previous thread on Rodinal he may have concluded that every time he asks how to get from A to B the Photrio answer will be: Do not start from A

I also feel that being an adult of sound mind, he may be aware that there could be drawbacks from using Rodinal.

pentaxuser

Don_ih · Jun 26, 2021

pentaxuser said:
an interest in an answer on what to do if he uses Rodinal

I gave him an answer that is the best possible starting point for attempting to develop it. And, in general, c41 film developed in b&w chemistry is too dense to get good scans and the orange base plus density makes enlargement difficult.

reddesert · Jun 27, 2021

jnantz, Don Heisz: There should no orange mask on Kodak BW400CN or Ilford XP2, because these are C-41 process films that are designed to produce a monochrome negative that looks like a black and white negative and can be printed the same way.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Jun 27, 2021

It is possible to get very good negatives from C41 color films by developing in B&W chemistry if one follows @David Lyga's method. A bit of testing is needed to get the best results, but his method does produce negatives that a naive development of C41 color film in B&W film won't produce.

Ilford XP2 Super gives great results in B&W chemistry without requiring David's method.

Anon Ymous · Jun 27, 2021

reddesert said:
jnantz, Don Heisz: There should no orange mask on Kodak BW400CN or Ilford XP2, because these are C-41 process films that are designed to produce a monochrome negative that looks like a black and white negative and can be printed the same way.

BW400CN definitely has an orange mask and wasn't meant to be printed on classic bw paper, but RA4.

MattKing · Jun 27, 2021

Anon Ymous said:
BW400CN definitely has an orange mask and wasn't meant to be printed on classic bw paper, but RA4.

+1
It is/was perfectly suited to one hour minilabs, which were generally only supplied with colour RA4 paper.
The Ilford product was designed for one target group, while the Kodak product was designed for another.

reddesert · Jun 27, 2021

Anon Ymous said:
BW400CN definitely has an orange mask and wasn't meant to be printed on classic bw paper, but RA4.

That's what I get for extrapolating and misremembering! Thank you for the correction. XP2 does not have the orange mask and I mistakenly applied that to the Kodak product.

That's an even stronger reason to process it in C-41.

removed account4 · Jun 27, 2021

reddesert said:
jnantz, Don Heisz: There should no orange mask on Kodak BW400CN or Ilford XP2, because these are C-41 process films that are designed to produce a monochrome negative that looks like a black and white negative and can be printed the same way.

I know!
but if you use a coffee developer, it masks the mask with the evil stench of caffenol and the goodness of coffee ... and makes it easier to print on regular b/w paper ..
(slide film with its yellow mask can also be processed the same way with the same stellar results )..
Larry D at one point used to skinny dip his orange masked black and white film processed in b/w developer in household bleach. (it removed the mask )
PE suggested he did damage to his film, LD stopped after a while but documented his adventure in the caffenol palace on Flickr

OP, good luck !
John

Ko.Fe. · Jun 27, 2021

Developing in Rodinal will only makes it worse.

Don_ih · Jun 27, 2021

reddesert said:
That's what I get for extrapolating and misremembering! Thank you for the correction. XP2 does not have the orange mask and I mistakenly applied that to the Kodak product.

That's an even stronger reason to process it in C-41.

Damn - I was hopeful that the Kodak stuff was like the Ilford stuff after your initial comment, since I have a mystery roll of exposed Kodak.

gone · Jun 27, 2021

Does the Kodak C41 film even have any grain to speak of? I thought it was just dyes. Rolls of mine that were developed in C41 chemistry look totally grainless. I guess if the op develops it in Rodinal at 1:25 (something I would hesitate to recommend) he'll find out!

foc · Jun 27, 2021

IMO the latent image on a 10 to 20 year old chromogenic film will be fairly faint at this stage.
Just develop it in C41 (the intended developer for this film) and be happy if you get anything.

reddesert · Jun 27, 2021

momus said:
Does the Kodak C41 film even have any grain to speak of? I thought it was just dyes. Rolls of mine that were developed in C41 chemistry look totally grainless. I guess if the op develops it in Rodinal at 1:25 (something I would hesitate to recommend) he'll find out!

After my previous error I'm wary of shooting my mouth off, but to my understanding both BW400CN and XP2 are C-41 silver films with monochrome dye couplers. That means, like any C-41 film, there is a silver image with grains that you see if developed in a black and white process, but in the C-41 process the image forms dye clouds, and then the original silver image is removed by the bleach step.

Yaeli · Jun 27, 2021

Thank you all for your replies ! I have not left you I'm just quite "overbooked" at the moment and have very limited time to answer you, but I will do it more properly as soon as I can.

Yaeli · Jun 29, 2021

Ok, I'll try and answer you all For those who don't have the time, here's a summary of my plan : one roll is going to go to the lab for C41, and I'll develop the other one at home, either in Rodinal 1:100 or in a mix of XTol and Rodinal (1:3 XTol and 2.5ml of Rodinal seems to provide good results). Why not send the 2 to the lab ? Well, my friend is interested in seeing the results in b&w "soup", and also, it's more fun to do it yourself

@reddesert : the reason for not developping both in C41 is given above. I'll pay attention to the vinegar smell, thanks !

@pentaxuser : I won't put both rolls in the same tank (see above). I've also read many times that it's a bad idea to use less than 5ml of Rodinal per roll, so I won't try it either.
It is true that Rodinal does not seem to be much in favor (at least not for the "experiments" I'm doing with it ). It is certainly much better suited for low speed films, but... I'm a bit stubborn (which, btw, was a good thing for the HP5 at 3200 experiment !).

@Don Heisz : that "testing" process seems way too complicated for me, sorry

@jnantz : The rolls have apparently been standing on a shelf in a room for a long time. No idea if the conditions were stable. I don't have any print developer, but from what I've read, Rodinal is also pretty good at cutting fog, so... As for the orange cast, since it will be scanned and turned into a b&w in Lr, do you think it would really impact the result ?

@Raghu Kuvempunagar : that seems quite complicated, especially the bleach part... On the blog by Mrleica that I quoted, he seems to get very good results with a mix of XTol and Rodinal. It also seems that ultra low dilutions of Rodinal (1:200 or even 1:400) give much poorer results than 1:100.

For all those who recommended C41, as mentioned, I'll send one roll to the lab and we'll see how it turns out compared to rodinal or Xtol and rodinal

Thanks again for all your comments !

pentaxuser · Jun 29, 2021

Yaeli, thanks for replying to all of us who contributed. Please show us the two films when developed by the lab (C41) and home processed in the Xtol + Rodinal

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