Old Agfa Atomal / Orwo A49 / Calbe A49 questions

James1 · Feb 16, 2013

Hi folks,

I've got another quandary...

I recently bought a job lot of old Orwo stuff, and in it were a few packets of Orwo A49, made in 1976. I've also previously bought Orwo A49 made in the late 1980s, and I have some modern Calbe A49.

I was suprised when I opened the 70s Orwo A49 - it contained three packets of chemicals to be dissolved in water. The 80s A49 and the moden Calbe A49 have only two.

I seem to remember reading that Atomal/A49 was reformulated at some point, because one of the ingredients, HEAP, was no longer available. Is this the reason for the apparent difference between the 70s A49 and the others? Does anyone have an opinion on which is better?

Finally, how long will stock solutions of each of these keep? Googling suggests anywhere between 1 month and 6 months.

Thanks for any help!

gorbas · Feb 16, 2013

Hi James, Any ORWO B104 paper developer in your treasure box? It vanished from market around early '80 and was replaced with N120.

Gerald C Koch · Feb 16, 2013

James1 said:
I seem to remember reading that Atomal/A49 was reformulated at some point, because one of the ingredients, HEAP, was no longer available. Is this the reason for the apparent difference between the 70s A49 and the others?

Probably.

James1 · Feb 16, 2013

Thanks Gerald.

@gorbas - Unfortunately no, but there is a packet of N120.... I do recall seeing some B104 recently, can't remember where at the moment. Will see if I can find it.

gorbas · Feb 16, 2013

Hi James, I found in my processing book this instructions for A49. One is from around 1978/79 and other is early '80, maybe 1983?. First A49 come in cardboard box, second was in "aluminum" foil bag. Both are with 2 part bags.
Thank you for looking for B104!

AndreasT · Feb 16, 2013

I had a few packet of GDR Orwo A49 developer. Using it without testing it my negatives were thin, very thin. It was in the day when I started developing film so maybe I did somthing wrong although I doubt it.
The developer was at least ten years old. Just test it before using.

brucemuir · Feb 16, 2013

I thought the difference in recipes was a difference in sodium hydroxide amounts.

Just something bouncing around in ye ole' noggin atm so take it for what it's worth.

Gerald C Koch · Feb 16, 2013

Thw formua that I have for Atomal uses sodium carbonate as the alkali not sodium hydroxide.

The developing agent Atomal is hydroxyethyl-o-aminophenol sulfate. It was also used in the May & Baker developer Promicrol. Eventually there was just not enough demand for the chemical and production ceased.

James1 · Feb 17, 2013

Thanks for all the info and updates folks. So, looks like my 70s A49 contains HEAP as the developing agent and is the original formulation, and ther 80s stuff is the updated formulation. Andreas' point noted - will certainly test before use.

I suppose there is no point worrying which is better as I only have enough of the original for 12 films!

Does anyone have any experience of how long a stock solution of any of this stuff stays usable?

mikebarger · Feb 17, 2013

I have a couple packs of the Agfa Atomal, suppose it is any good?

Thanks

gorbas · Feb 17, 2013

Hi James,
I had to dive deep in my "cold war" photo library. There is what i have found:

As you can see, there is mention about developing agent but no information regarding alkali in developer.
Thank you for the link for B104. Unfortunately I can't open it.
Are you in Europe?
Also I have 5 packs of original Agfa Atomal if anybody is interested.

Ian Grant · Feb 18, 2013

Gerald C Koch said:
Thw formua that I have for Atomal uses sodium carbonate as the alkali not sodium hydroxide.

The developing agent Atomal is hydroxyethyl-o-aminophenol sulfate. It was also used in the May & Baker developer Promicrol. Eventually there was just not enough demand for the chemical and production ceased.

Hydroxyethyl-o-aminophenol sulfate was used in Russia in a manufacturing process for something non photographic, that meant it was economic to produce, when the process ceased in Russiathere was no longer sufficient demand to allow manufacture at a low cost. Photographic use had always been a very small fraction of theproduction.

Ian

James1 · Feb 18, 2013

Thanks Gorbas. Yes, I am in Europe - the UK.

That looks like an English version of Orwo Rezepte - I would love a copy. If anyone has one going spare, or knows of one for sale, please let me know...

@Ian - thanks for the confirmation!

Gerald C Koch · Feb 18, 2013

Atomal

Distilled water (50°C) 750 ml
Hydroxyethyl-o-aminophenol sulfate 6.0 g
Catechol 10.0 g
Hydroquinone 4.0 g
Sodium sulfite (anhy) 100 g
Sodium carbonate (anhy) 25.0 g
Potassium bromide 1.0 g
Sodium metaphosphate 1.0 g
Distilled water to make 1.0 l

Since HEAP is no longer available I would suggest subtituting Metol which is chemically similar. Since the molecular weight of these two developing agents and their activity are different some adjustment in the amount would have to be made.

gorbas · Feb 18, 2013

Yes, James, Blast form the past! I grow up with ORWO films & chemicals and I like that little book. Unfortunately do not remember how i got it??
If you need something specific from it, please ask!

Goran

Ian Grant · Feb 19, 2013

You need to substitute the Hydroxyethyl-o-aminophenol sulfate with something like CD 4 to achieve the fine grain associated with Atomal.

This is similar in many ways to Johnsons Meritol another ultra fine grain developng agent which is formed by combining Paraphenylene diamine with Pyrocathechin (Catechol.

Ian

James1 · Feb 19, 2013

@Ian - interesting. I'm sure one of my reformulated packets of A49 stated one of the sachets contained CD1. That perhaps is the case for modern Calbe A49, but I don't have access to the MSDS to check.

@gorbas - thanks. Would love a copy of the whole book so not practical - but as mentioned, if anyone reading this knows of one for sale, I would be interested!

AgX · Feb 19, 2013

Calbe do not list their classic b&w developers any longer.

Ian Grant · Feb 19, 2013

James1 said:
@Ian - interesting. I'm sure one of my reformulated packets of A49 stated one of the sachets contained CD1. That perhaps is the case for modern Calbe A49, but I don't have access to the MSDS to check.

Calbe do use CD-1 N,N-Diethyl-1,4-phenylendiammoniumsulphate in the re-frormulated version A49, it would be better than the CD 4 I suggested.

This type of developer hasn't been fully explored and there's many possibilities.

Ian

piu58 · Feb 19, 2013

A49 prevents building up too much density at some rather contrasty working films. I like it for aerial films like Rollei Retro 80 or Superpan 200.

James1 · Feb 19, 2013

piu58 said:
A49 prevents building up too much density at some rather contrasty working films. I like it for aerial films like Rollei Retro 80 or Superpan 200.

Sounds excellent. And does the stock solution last for a reasonable length of time (in closed bottles)?

Dali · Feb 19, 2013

piu58 said:
A49 prevents building up too much density at some rather contrasty working films. I like it for aerial films like Rollei Retro 80 or Superpan 200.

It might explain why I got very good results with medium speed films like Plus-X but no so good with Tri-X. It might also comes form my development time... I need to investigate further. BTW, I use the ADOX version which should be pretty similar the the Calbe version.

Dali · Feb 19, 2013

James1 said:
Sounds excellent. And does the stock solution last for a reasonable length of time (in closed bottles)?

I don't find the stock solution to last very long. 4 weeks, maybe 5... In fact, I store my exposed rolls until I get enough to use a full bottle of developer (1+1 dilution).

piu58 · Feb 21, 2013

James1 said:
Sounds excellent. And does the stock solution last for a reasonable length of time (in closed bottles)?

I have used the stock solution over a period of 2...3 months without any degradation. For 1+1 dilution I filled small bottles which remained unopened until I use them. They last even longer, more than half a year.

piu58 · Feb 21, 2013

Dali said:
BTW, I use the ADOX version which should be pretty similar the the Calbe version.

It is the same stuff.

Old Agfa Atomal / Orwo A49 / Calbe A49 questions

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