OK, now THIS will be contraversial....

Should people who haven't honoured their committments in ANY of the previous exchanges (group, blind, postcard, etc...) NOT be allowed in any future exchanges unless their committments are filled? Should we make a public blacklist compiled from all the previous and current coordinators?

Art. (Moderators at the ready...)

Sounds like you are getting just a wee bit political gr82bart.

tut tut.

I guess I don't feel comfortable answering without some sort of idea hoe common this problem is.

Paul.

By the way, I sent everything yesterday! No deadbeat here!

I should explain...

When I was organizing the blind print exchange, I was trying to 'recruit' some more members, since, well, I goofed in the pairings and left out someone...Anyway, a few people PMed me and said that they had not revieved prints in previous exchanges (blind, group and otherwise - it was a mishmash) and felt short changed, since they made an effort to make a decent print and got nothing in return.

The PMs still are with me and I have been mulling over this question as I made my pairings. Do I pair someone who I know is an exchange deadbeat? What do I do? Anyway, I made all the pairings for everyone that posted or PMed me. Did I turn a blind eye?

Hence the question and the post...

Art.

I voted "No, but a public list as a reminder not as a punitive measure".

I think that an outright ban would be in order for repeat offenders (3 strikes?). Considering the amount of time made available in the rules to get a print made and in the mail, it shouldn't be THAT tough...

I voted as a private list, but I can see the public list as well.

I spent a great deal of money (for me at least, since I am kind of broke ) to make, mat, and especially ship prints for the group exchange, I am figuring that I am getting something in exchange that will make it worthwhile. If I get nothing from someone, I would be very dissappointed to have spent $20 shipping a print to them overseas to see nothing in return.

I guess it does seem appropriate that some sort of policing would be appropriate. I also agree with Bob about the three strikes and you are out policy. I would probably prefer a private list for the organizers so that there is no implication of shaming or making someone feel that they were paired with a known "deadbeat." I think that having rules and consequences like this in place and very well communicated might also help to prevent folks from becoming deadbeats in the first place.

Whilst I agree that it is annoying to make the effort of participating in these sort of events to then receive nothing in return, it must be remembered that personal circumstances do change. Articles also get lost in the post occasionally. That said I would not be happy to be put in a group with anyone that had not fulfilled their obligations in a previous round without explanation, and a response to a subtle PM from the organiser.

If I am entering an exchange or like and my photo hasn't arrived at the recipient I would rather like a PM telling me that than being put on a black list. That way I am make up for the mistake or loss by sending a new photo.

I don't think it should be necessary, but it should probably be tracked...

I would be on such a list - I failed to send stuff out for round 3, which is why I didn't subscribe to 4 or 5. I did the decent thing and blacklisted myself. If someone doesn't complete an exchange (which can happen for all sorts of good reasons), they shouldn't have the audacity to sign up for another exchange until they've made good on their previous comitments.

Before I sign up again (which I hope to), I'll make good on my previous exchange.

Ian

I've sent and recieve all my Print exchanges but my Postcard count isn't so rosy... 171 sent, 121 received. Some must go missing in transit, but not that many otherwise the postal services of the world would be the brunt of much more abuse than they currently are.

Yes. I have been left high and dry in ALL (two, fair enough) exchanges I've done. Granted, none of them were here, and I haven't participated in any here either... but spending the time (of which I have little in the vicinity of my darkroom) and effort to print, tone, matte, package and ship to some jerk who actually started the exchange in the first place really ticked me off.

Public flogging I say.

I was on the short end of an exchange. Later, I found out that the person was unable to make the effort due to personal circumstances for which I can understand an appreciate. I would not want this person blacklisted from future exchanges.

I think some acceptable explaination as to why the person was unable to fullfil their exchange obligation would be in order.

Nige said:

I've sent and recieve all my Print exchanges but my Postcard count isn't so rosy... 171 sent, 121 received. Some must go missing in transit, but not that many otherwise the postal services of the world would be the brunt of much more abuse than they currently are.

Click to expand...

No vote here as I have not participated in any formal exchange groups. However Nige may have a valid point: I have sent photos oversea which apparently never arrived and I was sent a photograph from a very respectable west coast subscriber which has not reached me. Does our Postal Service have a special shredder for us APUGers?

I do a fair number of exchanges. I had to back out of one once because of work obligations, but it was the sort of exchange where all the prints were gathered centrally and redistributed, so I didn't receive any prints either. I was way late with the group exchange #3, but those did go out.

I don't worry too much about not receiving a print. I don't keep track of the postcards or prints I get and from which exchange the prints are. At the beginning of the postcard exchange, we didn't have "rounds," so I just sent one out to the whole list whenever the inspiration struck and the time was there to do it. The main reason I participate in the exchanges is to challenge myself to print for an audience of other photographers, and if I get some nice prints back, that's a bonus.

I do think, though, that if there are people who always sign up for exchanges (say three or more) and never send a print, then they ought to be excluded from future exchanges. The exchanges should not become a means for people who may not even be photographers to build their print collections without doing any work.

(Not a computer programmer, so, I always think things are easier than they are)
What about a scoring system, like eBay. Exchange participants have an extra line in their profile - for each round they are signed-up for they can check a box "shipped" and recipient can check a box "recieved" (keep it simple, or, make it more informative... "I'll be late but am working on it, shipped, still waiting after deadline, recieved") To see how someone is doing all you have to do is look at this box and see how many rounds they've done and whether they are up-to-date in them; let the organizer decide whether to include/exclude based on current status.

I voted for the subtle pm route - thankfully, I have only had positive, if sometimes late from me or coming to me, experiences of print exchanges. Guess I've just been lucky.

I think there is always a risk with print exchanges. I've participated in two group exchanges, one with three other people, and one with four other folks, two blind exchanges, and a couple of private exchanges... for, I think, a total of twelve exchanges. Out of that twelve, I've been 'stiffed' once. I figure, that's not bad. Is this really THAT big a problem? Well, I'll grant you, it may be for the coordinator... and a BIG thank you to those who have coordinated the exchanges.

I find the benefit of seeing others' prints far outweighs the risk of getting stiffed, and unless it becomes a rampant problem, APUGGERs should 'police' themselves. All that said, I will probably be a little late with the next group exchange myself (summer schedules being what they are!) DOH!!!!

actually I did get 'stiffed' once... which I'd forgotten about. One of my 1st every exchanges (pre APUG) was going swimmingly, good correspondence, etc. I sent my print off and waited... and waited... emailed, no reply. Checked the guys website to see if there had been any activity only to see the family had updated the site with a notice to say that the guy had died!

dr bob said:

No vote here as I have not participated in any formal exchange groups. However Nige may have a valid point: I have sent photos oversea which apparently never arrived and I was sent a photograph from a very respectable west coast subscriber which has not reached me. Does our Postal Service have a special shredder for us APUGers?

Click to expand...

Mail here is so bad, I always use Express Mail; for everything.

I got burned in my first print exchange. Lots of us are busy and things get in the way but I think repeat offenders, say 3 times, excuses or no excuses, should be politely told that they are barred from exchanges.

So I can't completely speak for Jeremy who organizes the group exchange, but if we count pure delinquency based on posted due dates, we're talking around 10% of all particpants require a 'nudge' from either of us.

After the nudge, we're down to about 3-5% based on the last round. Last round had one individual drop out entirely from APUG after recieving his print. I know one group in the group exchange is still awaiting from two members and another from one member. To date in the blind exchange, two members are still waiting for their prints.

This next blind print exchange round has more particpants - around 55 to date compared to 40 the previous two rounds. So I am hoping that there will be better compliance this time.

I don't know what the numbers are for Jeremy's group exchange.

Overall though, I think these exchanges on APUG are amazing. I think it's a way to show community and most people are very patient when it comes to waiting for their print to arrive. What I also like is the international flavour of the participants this round (mind you many on APUG know I have actively recruiting particpants behind the scenes) and the levels of skills particpating. Also most of the more experienced members understand the effort and appreciate a 'newbie's' print, so there's an air of mentor - student, which I think is very valuable to APUG.

Anyway, I hope more people will think about signing on to either exchange or both exchanges as they're a great way to promote this community and promote analog.

Regards, Art.

How about keeping a private list and pooling the dead beats into their own groups........that way they can't complain if they get nothing and everyone else is happy!

Clayton

gr82bart said:

Should people who haven't honoured their committments in ANY of the previous exchanges (group, blind, postcard, etc...) NOT be allowed in any future exchanges unless their committments are filled? Should we make a public blacklist compiled from all the previous and current coordinators?

Art. (Moderators at the ready...)

Click to expand...

Please remove me from the Blind Print Exchange list.

c6h6o3 said:

Please remove me from the Blind Print Exchange list.

Click to expand...

Hi Jim,

OK will do. I am feeling that this thread offended you and percipitated your response? PM me.

Thanks, Art.

claytume said:

How about keeping a private list and pooling the dead beats into their own groups........that way they can't complain if they get nothing and everyone else is happy!

Clayton

Click to expand...

Great idea. And so diplomatic.