Oh Boy.. C-41 Develop & nothing there

peter k. · May 17, 2015

Oh Boy.. Developed & nothing there ... :confused:
Using Arista C-41 Liquid Color Negative Developing Kit 1 Quart from Freestyle..

Do not do that much color developing.. as I shoot B&W mostly.. but its spring soooo...
If this C-41 developer was maxed out, there would still be images developed, they would just look thin and flat, correct? (This kit is from last year and just developed roll #7 on May 5th, and it was excellent.)
If this is so, perhaps this old art swapped dev and blix when I returned them to their bottles.
Now is the Blix, is like a cherry red, and the developer a darker brown?

Background:
Have developed 7 with this kit, and this would have been my eighth roll, for 6.75 min at 102* Those rolls have been a mix of 35mm and 120 This eighth roll was 120, from an RB67.. yes... I removed the dark slide.. been trained on that.. yes.. took the film back off, and checked the shutter, it is working properly, and yes heard it fire every time I shot.

MattKing · May 17, 2015

Is there any edge printing on the negatives?

peter k. · May 17, 2015

NO!!!!
I knew there was something missing...

MattKing · May 17, 2015

peter k. said:
NO!!!!
I knew there was something missing...

Than you can rule out a problem with the camera.

peter k. · May 17, 2015

So its got to be the developer.. or I blix the images before developing them

CatLABS · May 17, 2015

MattKing said:
Than you can rule out a problem with the camera.

Actually, you can't, because there is nothing to say that the camera exposed something, but the user used bleach instead of developer or water instead of developer followed by bleach.

Most likely blix before developer. Blix is a thick brown/red - developer is a clear-ish yellowish.

peter k. · May 17, 2015

CatLABS said:
Actually, you can't, because there is nothing to say that the camera exposed something, but the user used bleach instead of developer or water instead of developer followed by bleach.

Most likely blix before developer. Blix is a thick brown/red - developer is a clear-ish yellowish.

Ha... that's the only thing that makes sense.. the developer today is darker than the blix... must have put them back in the wrong bottles last development... ... well that's the first time for that... a new training...

Well will toss it .. and mix a new kit and try the same shots again.. thank goodness not on on a trip or granddaughter's HS graduation picts which will be taken Thursday..
What a gas..

markbarendt · May 17, 2015

peter k. said:
If this C-41 developer was maxed out, there would still be images developed, they would just look thin and flat, correct?

No.

Even if the silver developer works properly and makes an image, if the color developers are used-up/dead, then no image (not even edge marks, will be visible when done.

Bleaching is a normal part of the C-41 process. Bleaching changes the developed silver back to it's un-developed state, so no silver image.

Fixing washes away all the un-developed silver.

If both the silver and color developers worked, and the bleach and fix did their jobs; only the color image, the dye clouds, remain.

peter k. · May 17, 2015

markbarendt said:
No.

Even if the silver developer works properly and makes an image, if the color developers are used-up/dead, then no image (not even edge marks, will be visible when done.

Bleaching is a normal part of the C-41 process. Bleaching changes the developed silver back to it's un-developed state, so no silver image.

Fixing washes away all the un-developed silver.

If both the silver and color developers worked, and the bleach and fix did their jobs; only the color image, the dye clouds, remain.

Hmmm.. let me see if I understand... your saying that if the developer is dead... maxed out.. then there would be no images at all or edge marks, as the roll is now..
Question: If I blixed it first.. which is a bleach and fix together, then it also could give the same results with no image or edge marks, as the entire roll was un-developed. Correct?

How is it possible that I could get such a good development, just 12 days ago.. but that the developer could go totally dead, for today's assignment?
As stated, I do not do allot of color development.. but what I have read on past posts on C-41 development.. is that it seems that you can tell that it is going dead... by the image. That's my confusion. That there is an image that can be seen that is not developed properly or completely.

Thanks for any clarity .. as I'm just a beginner in this.

Prof_Pixel · May 17, 2015

markbarendt said:
No.

Even if the silver developer works properly and makes an image, if the color developers are used-up/dead, then no image (not even edge marks, will be visible when done.
......

If both the silver and color developers worked, and the bleach and fix did their jobs; only the color image, the dye clouds, remain.

The C-41 process only has ONE developer, unlike reversal film chemistry which uses both a 'silver developer' and 'color developer'.

RPC · May 17, 2015

Prof_Pixel said:
The C-41 process only has ONE developer, unlike reversal film chemistry which uses both a 'silver developer' and 'color developer'.

Correct. The one developer oxidizes when reducing the silver halide to metallic silver, then the oxidized developer combines with dye coupler in the film to form the dyes.

markbarendt · May 18, 2015

Prof_Pixel said:
The C-41 process only has ONE developer, unlike reversal film chemistry which uses both a 'silver developer' and 'color developer'.

I stand corrected.

RPC provided a better description than I did.

markbarendt · May 18, 2015

peter k. said:
Hmmm.. let me see if I understand... your saying that if the developer is dead... maxed out.. then there would be no images at all or edge marks, as the roll is now..

It is more likely that chemicals were used out of order, but if the developer is dead, from use, age/oxidation, or contamination; then there is no development and that includes edge marks.

Rudeofus · May 18, 2015

These colour developers supplied with liquid developer kits tend to turn red after processing a few rolls of film, so this is where the mixup could have come from. BLIX at the same time gets more dilute over time from carry over. It is still easy to determine which one is which, even if the bottles have no label: BLIX will lighten B&W prints or film clips.

Given that people used one liter of C-41 developer to successfully process 20+ rolls of film, I would state that process liquid sequence mixup is the much more likely explanation than developer exhaustion.

Xmas · May 18, 2015

Rudeofus said:
These colour developers supplied with liquid developer kits tend to turn red after processing a few rolls of film, so this is where the mixup could have come from. BLIX at the same time gets more dilute over time from carry over. It is still easy to determine which one is which, even if the bottles have no label: BLIX will lighten B&W prints or film clips.

Given that people used one liter of C-41 developer to successfully process 20+ rolls of film, I would state that process liquid sequence mixup is the much more likely explanation than developer exhaustion.

Yes unlikely even if the top was not screwed down and ambient too high you should have got something.
I need a one, two three in large labels for processing E6.
Cept when the developer is in a concertina and a and b fix, HCA in poly containers for mono.

sfaber17 · May 18, 2015

Rudeofus said:
These colour developers supplied with liquid developer kits tend to turn red after processing a few rolls of film, ..

Given that people used one liter of C-41 developer to successfully process 20+ rolls of film, I would state that process liquid sequence mixup is the much more likely explanation than developer exhaustion.

Didn't know you could get that much use from it. How red can it get and still be good? I mixed a liter of developer and had it in a full glass bottle for several months and it was a light straw color before I used it and it worked fine. Then I left a quarter liter in a jobo bottle for a day or two and it got darker so I threw it out. I don't re-use the developer so I get 8 rolls out of a liter. (I only did 2 rolls so far but they are looking good.)

Rudeofus · May 18, 2015

sfaber17 said:
Didn't know you could get that much use from it.

I can't tell, because I have never done such a thing, but there is a (there was a url link here which no longer exists) about people using C-41 chems to the extreme. YMMV.

Xmas · May 18, 2015

You may need a lot of white balance if you push your luck.

bvy · May 18, 2015

sfaber17 said:
Didn't know you could get that much use from it. How red can it get and still be good?

"Could" doesn't necessarily mean "should." I use the developer one shot. I reclaim it and might use it a second time for cross-processing or non-critical work. Then I dump it. The developer's cheap enough that I don't take the risk.

If you do reuse it, know that after the first couple rolls, you're supposed to increase the developing time slightly with each successive roll to compensate for the exhaustion (PE has posted a chart before). Depending on the films you process and whether you prewash, the developer can turn any number of colors -- gold, red, pink -- or remain mostly clear. In itself, it's not a good indicator of how viable the developer is. Before going one shot, I remember using Rollei developer that was almost black and getting usable results. I wouldn't do that today. If it's too dark or murky, I would dump it and start over.

Also, it's good practice to "proof" any developer before you use it. My procedure is to put a piece of clear tape over a clip of undeveloped leader -- do this on the emulsion side and don't cover it completely. Drop it into your developer and wait. The area surrounding the tape should turn almost black in contrast to the area under the tape.

peter k. · May 18, 2015

I'll be darn... never thought of it.. so I tried it... using B&W test strips for the Blix and Developer.. and of course it works... done it for B&W, but never made the transition to color roll film.
What a gas... :munch:

Oh Boy.. C-41 Develop & nothing there

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Oh Boy.. C-41 Develop & nothing there

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