Odd pattern on negatives - driving me nuts

markfitzgerald · May 8, 2019

Can anyone tell me what this may be? So far I've got it on two rolls out of the three I've developed. New film, unwrapped and loaded in high humidity location, shot within a day or two of being loaded into camera. After it was shot, it was tossed in a ziplock bag for a few days. Then it was flown back to the states in my backpack, moving in an out of air conditioned locations. Film: Ilford Delta 400 developed in HC-110 and Ilford FP4 developed in Ilfasol 3. Both show the same pattern. Humidity? x-ray damage? Bad stop bath? Fixer was new-ish.

Ces1um · May 8, 2019

It's not x-ray damage- got a photo of the actual negative?

canuhead · May 8, 2019

I want to say fungus but not sure...

John Salim · May 8, 2019

If it's roll film, I'd question the backing paper myself !

John S

markfitzgerald · May 8, 2019

Someone mentioned film mottling due to humidity/condensation and emulsion sticking to backing paper. It was in a tropical environment, so maybe that's it? Here's a photo of a different negative with the same issue.

Agulliver · May 8, 2019

It has all the hallmarks of the backing paper on 120 film interacting with the emulsion due to high humidity and/or changes in temperature.

Kino · May 8, 2019

markfitzgerald said:
Can anyone tell me what this may be? So far I've got it on two rolls so far. Delta 400 in HC-110 and FP4 in Ilfasol 3. Humidity? x-ray damage? Bad stop bath? Fixer was new-ish.

View attachment 223216

Judging by the number of your posts, you are probably either pretty new or an infrequent visitor, so don't take this the wrong way.

You need to give as much detail as possible in order for the forum to try to help you.

How about as a general rule (and you may have provided some of this already):
1. Film Brand, Type and format.
2. Fresh stock or expired?
3. How long since you purchased it.
4. How you stored it before you shot the film.
5. How long it sat in the camera and what was the environment?
6. When/where was it processed and the particulars.
7. Provide an image of the problem; preferably an image of the negative itself and NOT a scan.

More details will be asked probably, but it will eliminate a lot of back and forth questioning and allow you to get your problem diagnosed quicker!

Just trying to be helpful...

Andrew O'Neill · May 8, 2019

Backing paper. Isn't it strange how this never seemed to be an issue in the past?

MattKing · May 8, 2019

Andrew O'Neill said:
Backing paper. Isn't it strange how this never seemed to be an issue in the past?

Not strictly accurate - but there was a period of around 30 years from 1970 to 2000 where you didn't see it very often.
Which happened to coincide with high volumes and an incredibly robust Kodak distribution system.
I refer to Kodak merely because most of my "exposure" to 120 film was to Kodak films.

markfitzgerald · May 8, 2019

The hypothesis in a private thread with another user seems to be that I put the exposed film (all new stock, never refrigerated) in a plastic bag while still in a hot, humid environment, and when I ran through multiple airports and lots of air conditioning on m way home, the humidity in the bag had no where to go besides into the film/backing paper/emulsion. Lesson learned, I guess.

markfitzgerald · May 8, 2019

Andrew O'Neill said:
Backing paper. Isn't it strange how this never seemed to be an issue in the past?

So far, all the issues have been with Ilford. The new Kodak Tmax400 backing paper seems fine.

AgX · May 8, 2019

Andrew O'Neill said:
Backing paper. Isn't it strange how this never seemed to be an issue in the past?

Finally someone shares my view.

I do not remember this issue ever to have come up in the past, aside in manfacturers' reports on handling and processing faults.

cramej · May 8, 2019

MattKing said:
Not strictly accurate - but there was a period of around 30 years from 1970 to 2000 where you didn't see it very often.

...a time period in which film was in it's prime - high production and high usage. I doubt there was much hoarding of film and freezer storage was much less common. I believe the current trend of buying a bunch of film and storing it for later has contributed to the previously uncommon problem of moisture affecting the backing paper.

markfitzgerald · May 8, 2019

cramej said:
...a time period in which film was in it's prime - high production and high usage. I doubt there was much hoarding of film and freezer storage was much less common. I believe the current trend of buying a bunch of film and storing it for later has contributed to the previously uncommon problem of moisture affecting the backing paper.

Unless Adorama is refrigerating their stock, this was a fresh order. Expiration Dec 2020.

Andrew O'Neill · May 8, 2019

cramej said:
...a time period in which film was in it's prime - high production and high usage. I doubt there was much hoarding of film and freezer storage was much less common. I believe the current trend of buying a bunch of film and storing it for later has contributed to the previously uncommon problem of moisture affecting the backing paper.

I've developed HP5 and TMY-2 that has been in the freezer since 2005. No issues whatsoever (other than slight increase in B+F). All the years I lived in Japan, where my film was subjected to Extreme heat and humidity... no issues.

grahamp · May 8, 2019

If the film went into a sealed bag in warm, humid conditions, and was then subjected to cooler temperatures and reduced pressure (air travel in the cabin), there is a good chance the conditions inside the bag crossed the dew point and there was condensation. The film and the backing paper would absorb some moisture, and it would have little chance of escaping in the closed environment.

AgX · May 8, 2019

Film is sealed after converting at a controlled climate. At least that is the industry standard.
As I said in the past I do not see how originally sealed film could get harmed during freezing and defreezing.

To get below the dew point one only needs to seal the film at 20° and 50% humidity and then do a walk on a european autumn day. No need for a freezer....

markfitzgerald · May 8, 2019

grahamp said:
If the film went into a sealed bag in warm, humid conditions, and was then subjected to cooler temperatures and reduced pressure (air travel in the cabin), there is a good chance the conditions inside the bag crossed the dew point and there was condensation. The film and the backing paper would absorb some moisture, and it would have little chance of escaping in the closed environment.

Yep, this is what I now believe happened. I live in cold NY, and I'm used to stuffing things in plastic bags before bringing them inside to slowly come up to temperature, with all condensation happening outside the bag. My first experience bringing old film cameras to the Caribbean and I did the same thing, but I shouldn't have since the moisture was all on the inside and I apparently trapped it there.

pbromaghin · May 8, 2019

markfitzgerald said:
So far, all the issues have been with Ilford. The new Kodak Tmax400 backing paper seems fine.

Do you mean all of your issues? This is the first I've heard of any backing paper issues with Ilford. Kodak got hit real bad for a couple years.

antmar · May 8, 2019

John Salim said:
If it's roll film, I'd question the backing paper myself !

John S

+1

warden · May 8, 2019

pbromaghin said:
Do you mean all of your issues? This is the first I've heard of any backing paper issues with Ilford. Kodak got hit real bad for a couple years.

There are two other current threads on Photrio regarding Ilford backing paper (or at least that's what some are suggesting as potential problems). It is odd that these issues are cropping up.

markfitzgerald · May 8, 2019

pbromaghin said:
Do you mean all of your issues? This is the first I've heard of any backing paper issues with Ilford. Kodak got hit real bad for a couple years.

Right, all of the current issues with my travel pictures. Kodak roll was fine. Fp4 and delta 400 not. Going to develop a roll of delta 100 tonight.

mshchem · May 8, 2019

markfitzgerald said:
The hypothesis in a private thread with another user seems to be that I put the exposed film (all new stock, never refrigerated) in a plastic bag while still in a hot, humid environment, and when I ran through multiple airports and lots of air conditioning on m way home, the humidity in the bag had no where to go besides into the film/backing paper/emulsion. Lesson learned, I guess.

This sounds plausible. When you go from 90°F actual temperature and 80°F dew point to cold temperatures it's reasonable that you could have a "fog" of water condense on the rolled up film. I'm pretty careful, but I've taken 120 film from a refrigerator and loaded in a camera indoors without a problem. I've never gone from tropical to cool conditions with unwrapped film that I really recall.
But if the film and paper were holding water vapor in a steam bath like environment, and it got cold you are going to get condensation.

mshchem · May 8, 2019

AgX said:
Film is sealed after converting at a controlled climate. At least that is the industry standard.
As I said in the past I do not see how originally sealed film could get harmed during freezing and defreezing.

To get below the dew point one only needs to seal the film at 20° and 50% humidity and then do a walk on a european autumn day. No need for a freezer....

True.

pbromaghin · May 9, 2019

jawarden said:
There are two other current threads on Photrio regarding Ilford backing paper (or at least that's what some are suggesting as potential problems). It is odd that these issues are cropping up.

Where have I been?

Odd pattern on negatives - driving me nuts

markfitzgerald

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canuhead

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Odd pattern on negatives - driving me nuts

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